Various linguistic questions regarding French and English for film.

topic posted Sun, June 26, 2005 - 3:49 PM by  Pink
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First let me start that I know nothing of linguistics.

I am making a movie about popular music in France during the 60s, basically the French interpretation of rock 'n' roll and pop music. One of the things that I want to investigate are the linguistic reasons why French is French and why English is English and why one sounds one way and why the other sounds another way and is considered the language of rock 'n' roll.

I also have questions about the use of the article in French and other things. So I have these questions that I want to know if they are valid questions and if so what the answers are. Then I am looking for some professor to interveiw (or two) for the movie.

So specifically I am looking for someone, expertwise, to ask those questions to and others and someone to interview that can tell me what it is I am talking about.

Thanks for any input.
posted by:
Pink
Los Angeles
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  • Unsu...
     
    I recommend a fascinating (no joke) documentary which addresses exactly your questions and would be a great place to start before speaking with a linguistics professor. It's a 9-part series called "The History of the English Language," but the first two episodes are concerned with what you are asking about. It starts out explaining why English developed the way it did apart from French and German, two influential languages also being spoken in England at the time that Modern English was evolving. In particular with articles, as you mentioned, English dropped gender-specific articles and simplified down to the non-gender specific "the." (before that English used to be a bit more complex and also used the formal articles of "thee" which conjegated with "thine" and "thou," etc.)

    Historically, such important changes happened in England during trading times (1000 A.D. or in the 1100s, if my memory serves me correctly?) amongst the crossroads of the French and early English, as well as the Germanic-speaking tribes. It was because of such changes that English which was proving that it was able to absorb and adapt became the prefered language of trade (easier to speak as a second language if one doesn't have to remember conjegations!).

    The documentary also explains how English-speakers often absorbed French words as well as keeping their own words for the same things, and thus increased its vocabulary (i.e., in the world of food, "Venison" came from the french word for Deer, and Pork was used interchangeably for Pig meat, etc.)

    I found the documentary an interesting starting point for touching on all kinds of subjects in the realm of linguistics.

    Good Luck!
    • (before that English used to be a bit more complex
      ===
      I'm only nit picking here, cause this has alawys bothered me. that people think one language is more "complex" than another. It may be, in very particular areas, but that doesn't dilute the overall complexity of any or all languages.

      We lost our gendered nouns, but at the same time introduced gender neutral "it" into teh language. So, while you or I don't have to worry if a "shoe" is a he or she any longer, we also incorporate a more complex pronoun structure of "he" (the boy thing), "she" (the girl thing) or "it" the thing thing.


      I also disagree with Pink's oringinal contention that English is the Language of Rock & Roll enhernantly - that is, within the context of english itself... but rather that Rock and Roll is american, and we happen to have spoken English here.
      • Unsu...
         
        I agree, Kip - I think the case of English (American and/or British) being the language of rock is one of those historical accidents that only seems inevitable after the fact. It's difficult to separate our feelings about a culture from our feelings about its language, so it's tempting to try to find a causal relationship between language and culture where there is none.

        I've found it interesting lately to listen to KALX (90.7 FM) in Berkeley on Saturday mornings - they now have a French guy and American gal teamed up as DJs, and they play a lot of French rock. It sounds pretty rockin to me, even if it is in French! :-)
        • Unsu...
           
          I disagree. It seems like really good rock music only comes from places which speak Germanic or Scandinavian languages. Unless something weird has happened since I last heard, French rock is a contradiction in terms. They have some good pop music, but their rock sucks. Maybe a rock'n'roll scene has developed in Alsace?

          I suspect there is something linguistic, though it might just be that Germanic poetry tends to be stress-based more than rhyming?
          • I guess it depens on what you mean by "rock".

            the beatles could have existed in pretty much any language.

            And, i think about 1/2 the stuff by zep would have been fine...

            Russian is as hard as german, but doesn't have that hard rock sound.

            Ultimatly, this is one of those questions that is so "post fact" dependant, it can never be argued.
      • Let me be more specific, the language of rock 'n' roll is American English. The Beatles, The Stones and The Kinks all sang with American accents. The German band CAN sang with an American accent, not an english one.

        I think that American is the language of rock 'n' roll is undeniable. Which doesn't mean to say that I agree with it or that other languages can't make good rock 'n' roll songs.

        The Beatles WOULD never make it in another language. I just don't see that as being possible particularly because their influences were so anglo influenced - American blues, R n B, standards, skiffle etc.

        The other clarification that has to be made is between Pop and Rock. I don't stand too strongly over those classifications but when it gets down to it I am a pop guy, but I love a good rockin' beat. To say that the Beatles are Rock 'n' Roll one has to look at songs like Penny Lane or Martha My Dear, or Norweigian Wood and then say "is this rock 'n' roll?" The lines and distinctions cross and blur. Even "In Through the Out Door" mellows out considerably and becomes pop, so it's a tricky area to deal in. It almost seems that RnR runs it's course and the trend is to become poppy or sickly dreary like Elvis's later records (where he did a number of French cover tunes !)

        For those of you who don't think that French ever produced a good rock 'n' roll song, then you need to see my movie. You can see the demo here:

        www.bardotagogo.com/nxne

        The last artist singing is my evidence - Jacques Dutronc.

        In terms of KALX, what time is that show on? I would like to hear it. Way back in the day, scary to say 10 years ago, I was the first DJ to play French Pop (30s - 90s) at KALX. In fact I was known as The French DJ even though I played lots of other stuff. I certainly did leave it as a legacy though.

        Thanks for everyones comments though. One person that I want to interview besides a few linguists (I already have song writers talking about writing and singing in French and how difficult it is. In fact i interviewed the woman who sang and wrote not only the French version of These Boots Are Made for Walking, but also the German version which she said 1) was easier to write because of the hard Germanic sounds, 2) sang better or was easier to sing.) is Greil Marcus who perhaps can shed some light on the rock/pop debate.

        Again, if you know of any linguist proffessors etc in particular that I might be able to ask questions to, that would help.

        Cheers
        • While you can talk with professors, I suspect they would tell you much teh same thing we are saying. You are probably best geared toward finding a fluent french speaker on a site like this.

          I think that the catigories you are creating are arbitrary, and are forced to make your point.... rather than the facts making your point. To me, the stones never had an american accent, and the beatles and teh stones and the Kinks and Zep all used their native "tounge" in slang they used, approach to the music, etc. It's highly disengenious to suggest they dumped thier language in favor of "american" accents.



          I think that American is the language of rock 'n' roll is undeniable.
          ---
          Well, it's hardly UNDENIABLE as i've heard excellent rock sung in Navajo, in Lakota, in French, in German, in Russian, in Czech. You may disagree that it works as well, but that's opinion, not "factual" undeniablity.
        • Unsu...
           
          Can't remember the name of the French DJ - just looked on the KALX site, and it says Saturday morning is TBD, but I'm pretty sure they were on every Saturday in May, at least.

          Anyway, as far as American accents in rock - does this mean you're not counting punk as "rock 'n' roll"? Just curious, because that's where you see the opposite effect, where many of the classic punk bands are British, and American bands often imitate that.
          • Unsu...
             
            I saw a comedy routine years ago about that - some English band in an interview with really thick working-class English accents, then singing with an American accent, and an American band talking to the interviewer in an American accent, then singing with an English accent. It was really funny, partly because the guy had the accents and the banality of the rock-band interview down.
          • People seem to be under the impression that i think no other languages can sing pop or rock 'n' roll. That is far from the truth.

            What I originally wrote was: "...is considered the language of rock 'n' roll." To back-up that statement, I pointed out how all of the 60s British Invaision bands sang with an American accent. I even remember, but have no source, for John Lennon speaking about this. It is a pretty common understanding and people that don't recognize it probably don't listen to that much music. Just because a handful of bands sing in their own English accents, doesn't mean that the above is not true.

            This doesn't mean that 1) i don't think it can be done or 2) that I don't like it.

            1) not at all and i even show an example of someone rocking in French. 2) far from the truth. did anyone click on the link and check out what I am doing?

            Even if one were to count the punk rock bands, the sheer number of songs from these countries that are in American accents far outweights the contrary. And the fact that in America you can only name maybe one or two foreign language songs that hit the top 20 charts (the singing nun song (folk), eres tu (very slow, barely pop, soft pop) and that german 99 baloons song (oh, ok yeah the Macharina (sp?)) I think also points to this issue. (Now I said 'points to this issue' with the last example OF COURSE there are other issues going on here having to do with American tastes and avoidance of things foreign etc, but I am not talking about those things right now.)

            One of the main aspects of my movie is that it is difficult to sing rock 'n' roll/pop in French. This has been pointed out to me by several singers/songwriters that I have interviewed in the film. Eventually, artists learned how to sing good pop songs in French, even rock. But it took a long time for it to happen and at times they have to really alter the pronounciation of the language to do so (ie Nino Ferrer).

            Contray to what someone wrote above, a professor of linguistics will probably 1) confirm what I am saying and 2 ) be able to speak about it in a technical way that I am unable to nor are the people that I have been interviewing are able to. And thus, since this was a linguist tribe, I thought that there might be people on here who actually knew someone with some authority who I could speak to on the subject.

            In regards to KALX:

            Saturday morning is usually a new DJ try-out slot. So they could have been new DJs. If you want to know more about some really good French Pop/ Rock from the 60s I again point you to my site:

            bardotagogo.com/bwww/misc_page.php

            and there is our annual dance party on July 14th in San Francisco.
      • Actually, Old English in its oldest forms had a neuter pronoun: hit. (Old English, like most Indo-European languages has three genders.) But I have to agree: when folks talk about language complexity, they're usually talking about inflectional morphology. Mandarin Chinese has no inflectional morphology and it's as "complex" as English or Russian.
        • I would like to introduce another factor into our discussion: the relationship between language and class. When I was growing up in San Francisco in the 1950s, the blues were considered "low class" among African-Americans. I didn't finally accept the blues until the mid-1970s. And, ironically, it was the British youth's attraction to the blues that slowly made it palatable to many blacks. One of the reasons blacks were uncomfortable witht he blues was its linguistic foundation in the "idiom of poor black English". My suspicion is that "cockney" english found an affinity with "black delta-riverboat" english may be more important than we realize. There was a class affinity. In England, more than in America, how you "speak" defines your class and where you stand in English society. That may be different now, but when I was growing up, I remember vividly how parents didn't want you associating with certain people not so much because they were poorer but because they didn't want you growing up and talking like them. I suspect music type follows this paradigm.


          Gilton
          • I suspect music type follows this paradigm.
            ---
            Of course.

            Taht's partly why i think this whole idea taht there is a "language" or anything, is pretty much, bunk.

            Rock and Roll is an american experience that cannot be seperated FROM that american experience. But it's not about *language* but rather, *culture*. Americans are a culture of youth. They are a culture of economic spend v. save (or, commericialism). Americans are a culture of the "american dream" real or not. We have a "wild wild west", or "uncouth americans" attitude (real or not). and, most importnatly, we had a southern culture that had slavery than extreme racism, creating a full under-the-radar culture primed for explosive expression against authority.

            we are, fundimentally, independant. Rock and roll FULLY reflects that. we don't listen to "the man". We don't do what we are told. rock and roll is a language of teenage youth and rebellion only produced by a country that is a teenager and in her rebellion phases.

            confluence of events. but nothing suggests to me it's aobut the way english rhymes, or the way english is accented or sylibafied (sp)...
            • " But it's not about *language* but rather, *culture*."

              and

              "confluence of events. but nothing suggests to me it's aobut the way english rhymes, or the way english is accented or sylibafied (sp)..."

              nobody said anything to the contrary.

              The baby boom was not limited to America only. It is very important to mention the Baby boom which you don't because it was the reason for the youth culture explosion. Millions of young people with allowances or small jobs and-- BUYING POWER. Rock 'n' roll was good business ie good for 'the man.'

              Youth culture was and is still everywhere in europe. France was the same thing. except in France students started a real revolution culminating in May 68.

              all that stuff you wrote is, when it is correct, pretty obvious to me.
              • Unsu...
                 
                Actually, I *did* say that I thought the reason that all the good rock'n'roll is made by Anglophones and Teutophones might have something to do with English (and germanic?) poetry traditionally being more stress and alliteration based than rhyming.
                • Yes you did say that. And that is the general consesus with people that I have interviewed. The harder sounds go better with the hard syncopation of the music.

                  Whether or not only good rock 'n' roll is by those types of countries is a matter of opinion. But in terms of numbers (amount of music) and quality, I would say that English language rock outweighs all the rest by far.

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