sickness

topic posted Sat, June 25, 2005 - 5:40 PM by  sonya
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ok linguists, I have a query. Recently I was being my normal grammatical self and correcting my friend when she stated "i'm nauseous" but instead of the usual awe and interest met when I explain why "I'm nauseated" is the correct way of stating that you feel sick, she posed a question. Since most of the american population understands what is meant when someone says "I'm nauseous", isn't that the correct way of expressing nausea in the modern age? Personally I am all for the original grammatical way, but I just wanted to put this question to other linguistically minded folks such as yourselves to see what happens. any thoughts?
posted by:
sonya
Massachusetts
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  • Re: sickness

    Sat, June 25, 2005 - 6:44 PM
    The American Heritage dictionary has an interesting observation:

    www.bartleby.com/61/32/N0033200.html

    Merriam-Webster is a little less doubtful.

    www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

    Of course, these are lexicographers and not linguists, but you get the idea. I do know what you mean though. It's hard for me not to snicker when I hear somebody say "to air is human." I usually agree with them: "to err is human." But seriously, this has been happening for some time now. Nobody, I think would argue that silly must only be used where it would mean happy, just because that's what it originally meant in Middle English. The question is rather when is it a done deal.
  • Re: sickness

    Mon, June 27, 2005 - 8:04 AM
    rules are arbitrary, cyndy. They are there because someone, at sometime, codified what he heard or thought he heard.

    He or she did not take into account the reality of language, language use, and change of both vocab & meaning, as well as grammar. or rather than "take into account".. he or she likely didn't care, since they were codifying laguage AS IT IS, and not worrying about AS IT WILL BE.

    another rule that is quick(note the lack of ly) becomming the norm, is the dropping of adverbial markings.

    "the car runs really good" becomes "the car runs real good" or "teh car runs good".

    (and, i can't come up with any now, but just watching commercials for more than 10 minutes will provide a host of them."

    So as for caring what form someoen uses? Other than enjoying watching where language goes...i'm not overly adgitated by it.
    • Re: sickness

      Tue, June 28, 2005 - 6:12 AM
      i am not overly agitated by it either, i just wonder exactly where the line is drawn between dialect and language, and who has the right to decide. but then again I suppose thats what the study of linguistics is all about. eh?

      as for nauseous/nauseated I dont really care if people use the correct version or not, it just seems silly that most of the american population runs around suggesting that they make other people sick instead of themselves being in such a state (where do you think europeans got their stereotypes....) and furthermore, what do people say if they really mean they are making other people sick?

      the car runs real good is an excellent example of accepted language reorganization but it doesnt have as great a misunderstanding as nausea does. poor nausea, will it ever get the credit it deserves ? ;)
      • Re: sickness

        Tue, June 28, 2005 - 7:33 AM
        who has the right to decide.
        ===
        The speaking group.

        I can choose to invent a word at any time. Be it a logical invention, like turning "access" to a verb (did you access the Database?), or a totally new word like "google".

        The trick is, i have to get teh speech community to buy into it. This creativity generally starts as a community as small as two speakers, or a group of techies at one industry working on one program that they create slang for. but it "catches on".

        eventually words change. "irregardless" becomes an acceptable form of *regardless*. teh "ly" drops from adjectives and it is acceptable. or nauseous becomes the active adjective.

        as for "it just seems silly", that's only because you *happen* to know the "dictionary" definition. if one doesn't know that definition, one works on the *actual* *functional* definition which is "to be nauseous" "to fell like barfing".


        And again, as we all note, "correct" grammar or defnitions is more about the elite being able to define speech rules than about anythign truly "correct".
      • Re: sickness

        Tue, June 28, 2005 - 1:46 PM
        ''i just wonder exactly where the line is drawn between dialect and language''

        Generally speaking, tongues are considered differing dialects when they are mutually intelligible, and differing languages when they are not, but that is not is simple as it sounds. However, I don't think that that is what you are asking. I think (from the context) that you are asking where the line is drawn between standard dialect and non-standard dialects of a language. The standard (prestige) form of a language is a dialect as much as any other. A language (for example, English) encompasses all its dialects, standard and non-standard.
        • Re: sickness

          Wed, June 29, 2005 - 10:58 PM
          I am usually a stickler for the proper usage myself, but I just recently realized that I was committing an error: I was pronouncing forte as FOR-tay. It's very difficult to change it to FORT.

          How long until popular opinion changes that one and I can go back to the way I like to say it?
          • Re: sickness

            Thu, June 30, 2005 - 6:14 AM
            "How long until popular opinion changes that one and I can go back to the way I like to say it?"

            The two syllable pronuciation is rather common now. I've never heard any native anglophone pronounce the word with a single syllable (in the USA).
          • Re: sickness

            Thu, June 30, 2005 - 9:38 AM
            Maybe it's me, but i get so sick of hearing "propper usage", and people running around talking about how it's not correct to do X or Y.

            she didn't run the race quick, she ran it quickly.
            a resturant doesn't serve wine, it serves wine to it's customers.

            BITE ME. lol.

            sorry. :-)
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: sickness

              Thu, June 30, 2005 - 1:50 PM
              Nonsense, Kip, you just need a little education and you'll see the light. James Thurber, for example, has a very instructive essay on "who" vs. "whom".

              ;-)

              (Sorry for the long post, but I thought this was funny...)

              ----------------------
              The number of people who use "whom" and "who" wrongly is appalling. The problem is a difficult one and it is complicated by the importance of tone, or taste. Take the common expression, "Whom are you, anyways?" That is of course, strictly speaking, correct - and yet how formal, how stilted! The usage to be preferred in ordinary speech and writing is "Who are you, anyways?" "Whom" should be used in the nominative case only when a note of dignity or austerity is desired. For example, if a writer is dealing with a meeting of, say, the British Cabinet, it would be better to have the Premier greet a new arrival, such as an under-secretary, with a "Whom are you, anyways?" rather than a "Who are you, anyways?" - always granted that the Premier is sincerely unaware of the man's identity. To address a person one knows by a "Whom are you?" is a mark either of incredible lapse of memory or inexcusable arrogance. "How are you?" is a much kindlier salutation.
              The Buried Whom, as it is called, forms a special problem. That is where the word occurs deep in a sentence. For a ready example, take the common expression: "He did not know whether he knew her or not because he had not heard whom the other had said she was until too late to see her." The simplest way out of this is to abandon the "whom" altogether and substitute "where" (a reading of the sentence that way will show how much better it is). Unfortunately, it is only in rare cases that "where" can be used in place of "whom." Nothing could be more flagrantly bad, for instance, than to say "Where are you?" in demanding a person's identity. The only conceivable answer is "Here I am," which would give no hint at all as to whom the person was. Thus the conversation, or piece of writing, would, from being built upon a false foundation, fall of its own weight.

              A common rule for determining whether "who" or "whom" is right is to substitute "she" for "who," and "her" for "whom," and see which sounds the better. Take the sentence, "He met a woman who they said was an actress." Now if "who" is correct then "she" can be used in its place. Let us try it. "He met a woman she they said was an actress." That instantly rings false. It can't be right. Hence the proper usage is "whom."

              In certain cases grammatical correctness must often be subordinated to a consideration of taste. For instance, suppose that the same person had met a man whom they said was a street cleaner. The word "whom" is too austere to use in connection with a lowly worker, like a street-cleaner, and its use in this form is known as False Administration or Pathetic Fallacy.

              You might say: "There is, then, no hard and fast rule?" ("was then" would be better, since "then" refers to what is past). You might better say (or have said): "There was then (or is now) no hard and fast rule?" Only this, that it is better to use "whom" when in doubt, and even better to re-word the statement, and leave out all the relative pronouns, except ad, ante, con, in , inter, ob, post, prae, pro, sub, and super.

              (James Thurber: Ladies' and Gentlemen's Guide to Modern English Usage)
              • Re: sickness

                Thu, June 30, 2005 - 3:08 PM
                LOL i've never had an issue personally with whom, or with the knowledge of what is good grammer. I just hate those who enjoy telling others what is or is not "correct" as if it made them a better speaker.

                Whom is a form that is redily (sp) dissapearing - at least in American english. And that's just the way it t'is.

                I remember when a teacher told us to never end a sentance with a preposition, and another teacher laughed, then quoted a famous line by a president that was something like "Up with you, am I fed." or something.... i wish i could find the line... it's hystercial.

                anyone know of it?
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: sickness

                  Thu, June 30, 2005 - 3:27 PM
                  You're thinking of the line often attributed to Winston Churchill: "This is the sort of bloody nonsense up with which I will not put."

                  This Language Log post contends that it's most likely a misattribution:

                  itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/lan...1715.html

                  And another post ( itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/lan...1702.html ) says it's not really an example of preposition fronting, because "put up with" is an idiom, so its parts cannot be broken up anyway, unlike phrases like "put onto" which are compositional and contain a real object-taking preposition. (Think "That is a table onto which you can't put your books" - still awkward, but not as crazy sounding.)

                  But who cares - that sentence will still stymie your average self-styled grammarian. :-)
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: sickness

                    Thu, June 30, 2005 - 3:41 PM
                    nods. I was always a fan of "what box do you want this in?" "in what box do you want this" is just too akward. :-)


                    My other pet peeve (sp) is teachers who say *never* use the passive voice. I had a lingustic explain all that, and then explain how and why the passive should be used, under what circumstance it is not only better but BEST, and how to play the grammarians and tell them to fard off. :-)

                    Linguists and gramarians (often the same person on different days/in different roles) are fun to watch go "at it".
            • Re: sickness

              Thu, June 30, 2005 - 4:22 PM
              "[A] resturant doesn't serve wine, [sic] it serves wine to it's [sic] customers"

              Comma splice and contraction of a personal pronoun and the verb 'is' instead of a possessive prnoun. Gee, you're right; this is fun. &c.
              • Re: sickness

                Fri, July 1, 2005 - 9:32 AM
                LOL. yeah, i type "it's" a lot online. :-)

                luckily, i know to proof my letters at work. ;-)

                A book isn't a thought, it's art. isn't that the correct comma usage? If not, i have to send you to yell at my teachers. :-)
                • Re: sickness

                  Fri, July 1, 2005 - 11:46 AM
                  "A book isn't a thought, it's art. isn't that the correct comma usage? If not, i have to send you to yell at my teachers."

                  Your example looks like it consists of two independent clauses connected by a comma, which is the definition of a comma splice. I'm not proscribing against comma splices, but I am pointing out to you that most editors would consider it a fault. (You could replace the comma with a semi-colon or a period.)
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: sickness

                    Fri, July 1, 2005 - 11:56 AM
                    OHP, duh... thanks. ;-)

                    lol.
          • Re: sickness

            Mon, July 11, 2005 - 6:07 PM
            The conversion of "forte" from the French [fort] to the Italian [fort-e] I attribute to people learning music. Seriously! I think it happened after WWII. I heard a recording of Groucho Marx with Hermione Gingold, dated in the early fifties, I think. Ms. Gingold says, "I'm sorry, that's not my forte." Groucho replies, " I wish Knox was MY forte."
            Haven't checked recently, but I think the first prescribed pronunciation is the French. I use it myself, just to be annoying.
            But, anyone learning music learns the Italian pronunciation and carries it onward. So be it.

            Craig in Arcata
      • Re: sickness

        Fri, July 8, 2005 - 11:08 PM
        <snip> i just wonder exactly where the line is drawn between dialect and language, and who has the right to decide <snip>

        The distinction ends up being social/political. Someone from working class Scotland and someone from working class Mississippi probably couldn't understand each other, but they would both say they speak English. People from Serbia and Croatia speak languages that are much more similar to each other, but speakers will insist they are different languages. Many people who speak various languages will even insist they can't understand some other related language when they really can. Before American Sign Language was recognized as a natural language, ASL speakers thought of ASL as "bad English," even though ASL is unrelated to English and has a completely different linguistic structure.

        <snip>but then again I suppose thats what the study of linguistics is all about. eh?<snip>

        It's what sociolinguistics is all about. Where I went to school, "Linguistics" meant theoretical, generative linguistics, and things like sociolinguistics and psycholinguistics were studied as "applied linguistics." Sociolinguistics was not a required class for majors, and was often taken by non linguistics majors for general education requirements (and perhaps for Sociology).

        At some schools, though "Linguistics" means whatever flavor of linguistics they offer.

        So theoretical linguists spend their time studying how various languages are produced, and trying to build the most efficient models of grammar, both universal and language specific. I think it would be great if students of theoretical linguistics were required to take sociolinguistics, just for considering the social responsibility that applies to their field. Grad students at my school were required to take a class in the history of linguistics, which covered some of those issues.

        <snip>it just seems silly that most of the american population runs around suggesting that they make other people sick instead of themselves being in such a state<snip>

        If most of the speakers of a language understand a word to mean the same thing, then isn't that the "right" meaning, at least when speaking to most people? You know an older usage of it, but you still know what the speaker means when they use it this way, because you know most people aren't even aware of the other meaning.

        <snip> (where do you think europeans got their stereotypes....) <snip>

        Can't resist being flip...they get them the same place everyone does.

        <snip> and furthermore, what do people say if they really mean they are making other people sick? <snip>

        That's a good point. I've never heard anyone use "I'm nauseous" this way. Usually people say something like "I'm making them nauseous" or "They found me nauseating."
  • Re: sickness

    Sat, July 9, 2005 - 12:53 PM
    Holy cow! What a thread!
    Serves me right for going away to music camp for a week!

    Well, you know the old linguists' joke:

    "What's the difference between a dialect and a language?"
    "An ARMY!"

    Just look at Hindi/Urdu, Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian. etc.

    Prescribed grammar is like music theory. It occurs after the fact. Once something like "I'm nauseous" becomes the popular form for "I'm nauseated," well, that as one says, is that. A similar connundrum (do you pluralize this as connundra?):-) occurs with linguists all the time. When I tell people I'm a linguist - the first question is: "How many languages do you speak?" Then I have to go into the whole explanation of what linguistics is, and that it is not simply polyglotism. BUT, if everyone uses the term "linguist" as "polyglot" then, the definition changes to "polyglot". Oh, the pain.

    Using "Whom" is really interesting. As a native English speaker, I DO use whom, but I have to think about it i.e. affect it. The only places I don't think about it is in "For Whom the Bell Tolls" and "To Whom It May Concern."

    I did see a frog story called "For Whom the Tadpoles." But, that's another story.

    Craig
    • Re: sickness

      Sat, July 9, 2005 - 1:19 PM
      "Well, you know the old linguists' joke?"

      Actually, it first saw print in Yiddish in an article by Max Weinreich: "a shprakh iz a diyalekt mit an armey un a flot." (A language is a dialect with an army and a navy.) It has been attributed to Antoine Meillet, Max Weinreich, and Joshua Fishman.

      More information here:

      www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguist...navy.html
      • Re: sickness

        Sun, July 10, 2005 - 1:56 AM
        Genau!

        Thanks for Yiddish. I'm often confident about my understanding, then WHAMMO! I get some Hebrew or Polish reference to Judaic practices and boom, off to the Sprachverzeichnis!

        Craig
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    Re: sickness

    Mon, July 11, 2005 - 5:42 PM
    Yes, your friend is right. I think most modern linguists are of the opinion that the "correct" way to speak is the way most users speak, even if it is irregular. For there are all kinds of indisputably iregular yet correct phrasings.

    Historically "correct" grammar, the kinds obnoxious pseudo-intellectuals berate others about misusing, is simply the dialect used by the upper-class. It's this realization that has brought most linguists around to the opinion that correct grammar is what any particular group uses regularly.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: sickness

      Mon, July 11, 2005 - 5:58 PM
      Another example by the same reasoning: there ain't nothing wrong with double negatives unless you are purposely restricting yourself to a semi-formal dialect. Even in a rigidly formal "dialect" like symbolic logic, a double negative is perfectly "correct", it just cancels itself out. But in everyday informal English a double negative is a perfectly valid way of stressing a negative. But some people choose to go out of their way, from half-educated middle school teachers to educated authors of semi-formal papers, to restrict themselves to a semi-formal dialect, primarly stemming from an upper-class which had some members who decided upon a somewhat arbitrary set of rules somtime in the past. It is this dialect which some people, I suspect without even thinking about it, or thoughtlessly following the example of their half-educated middle school teachers, unreasonably insist

      So next time someone berates you about some such thing tell them they are half-educated pompous asses. Unless it's a professor having you write in a specified semi-formal system, such as the dialects prescribed by the APA or MLA. If they can't tell you what the name of the semi-formal dialect is then be suspicious.
      • Re: sickness

        Mon, July 11, 2005 - 7:49 PM
        So next time someone berates you about some such thing tell them they are half-educated pompous asses
        ---
        GOD how i want to teach that exact line to my child, so that when he or she hits some kindergarden teacher who replies to one of our first questions we ask at school with that oh so obnoxious, "Well, I don't know, Miss Cherone, CAN you go to teh bathroom? If you can't, i'm surprized you are in kindergarden.", my kid will have ammo. ;-)
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: sickness

          Mon, July 11, 2005 - 8:16 PM
          I think it is a tough thing for many primary education teachers--but by no means all-- to grasp because many are never taught the concept of formal systems (which is usually only taught to math students; a subject primary education teachers go out of there way NOT to learn.), let alone the difference between formal,semi-formal, and informal systems. And I think to really grasp the concept of correct grammar you have to be able to grasp the concept of a formal/informal/semi-formal systems.
        • Re: sickness

          Wed, July 13, 2005 - 10:45 AM
          Irish has an idiom which sticks, just coz it rhymes: "Is fearr liom Gaelige Briste na Gaelige Cliste": I prefer broken Irish to clever Irish.

          This language, that is fighting for it's life, will allow grammatical or other errors by speakers learning the language because they are part of the effort to save it. (excepting, of course, that such errors don't confuse the meaning of what the student is saying). That's the theory anyway. All to often, however, Irish speakers are wary to use the language at all just in case someone in the conversation is 'grammarian' who will take out the chalk and blackboard and begin explaining why the word for shoe is aspirated in the genitive case, and that he/she is wrong. This, from my experience, is one of the biggest reasons more people don't learn the language. In a supreme irony, those most concerned with the preservation of Irish are dealing a heavy blow to the very cause they fight for.

          Granted, the same does not apply to English directly, but something can be learned from those who are 'sticklers' on grammatical and other points. The point of language is to communicate, to share ideas...If that idea is picked up by the recipient without significant confusion language, whatever form it has taken, has done it's job.

          There was an attempt in the early 20th Century to codify Irish into a single 'prestige' form (such as the English "Queen's" or "BBC" English). The efforts were largely unsuccesful as the 3 main dialects of the language at the time all lobbied to have the largest piece of their dialect represented in the 'prestige' form...Although an 'official' document was published, it was largely ignored by the native population, just as it was when the English did it. "Grammar", in this form, is a load of codswallop.

          N

    • Re: sickness

      Tue, July 12, 2005 - 3:33 AM
      Double negatives!

      I love 'em! It always amazes me that "English teachers" believe that double negatives somehow negate eachother rather than enhance. Since prescriptive grammarians like "logic" I love to throw this one on them. "Can't a negative be an additive quantity rather than a multiplicitive one?" Okay, aside: Joke:
      Lecturer: "As we all know, in English we have double negatives; however, there doesn't exist an instance of a double positive."
      From the back of the room: "Yeah, right."

      Craig in Arcata
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: sickness

        Tue, July 12, 2005 - 8:34 AM
        I read that quote somewhere.
        • Re: sickness

          Tue, July 12, 2005 - 9:22 AM
          It's usually attributed to the late Sidney Morgenbesser, professor of philosophy at Columbia.

          See www.languagehat.com/archives/001482.php
          • Re: sickness

            Tue, August 2, 2005 - 11:54 AM
            random digression (yay!) kip, your note about calling someone a half educated pompous ass brought this story to mind. I was once asked by a couple of friends who were attempting to get a co-worker fired exactly what word they could use to convey the fact that he was a bungling idiot. I replied they could use the word feckless, which seemed appropriate until several weeks later I had occasion to read the letter they had written in which I found the sentence " larry woodbridge is a great big feckless" ohhh the agony, oh the pain ::shudders::

            anyways, like I said, random digression ;)

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