japonese Phonetic help

topic posted Fri, August 26, 2005 - 1:51 PM by  Kip
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Hey all. I was curious if anyone had the phonetic description of the R/L sound in japoneese. I sware I cannot figure out from my own mouth, exactly what is happening with the toung and where.
posted by:
Kip
offline Kip
Denver
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  • Re: japonese Phonetic help

    Fri, August 26, 2005 - 2:57 PM
    Kip:

    Generally speaking, it's just a retroflex tap r, as in the North American pronunciation of 'butter' or 'better'. It isn't trilled or rolled as a Spanish initial 'r' o 'rr'.

    In rare cases, such as certain songs and poetry, it can sound like a retroflex r as in N. American English, but that's a very special case.

    Ra, Ri, Ru, Re, Ro!
    Craig Kurumada
  • Re: japonese Phonetic help

    Fri, August 26, 2005 - 2:58 PM
    It's an alveolar lateral flap /ɺ/.

    See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alve...teral_flap
    • Re: japonese Phonetic help

      Sun, August 28, 2005 - 11:07 AM
      Yes, it is not as far back as a retroflex flap.

      I've sometimes heard Japanese r realized as the same as English L. This might be an affectation, or due to the extensive use of r to transcribe L in loanwords.

      Cantonese N has been shifting towards L ("you" is usually "lei" now) so I wonder whether something similar is happening in Japanese.
      • Re: japonese Phonetic help

        Mon, August 29, 2005 - 8:47 AM
        I hear that all the time. in fact, in any given context, teh same speaker (by the way, I'm using film dialoge as my examples - so hardly real life, but this is wehre i noticed it) in any given context, teh same speaker may use "l" or "r" to my ear, depending on teh placement of the word. Yet my husband, fluent in japanese, assures me that they are the same letter or at least the "ri/li", and ro/lo, etc., are the same letter.

        I could understand it being characteristic of one dialect or one speaker, but any individual speaker will switch "sounds" in this apparent phoneme. if I were more careful, i might find times where the r/l shift is do to slides, or realtion to other consenants, etc. but that's called "efforts" lol
        • Re: japonese Phonetic help

          Mon, August 29, 2005 - 10:03 AM
          It's probably that you're hearing two different allophones and approximating to the closest thing in English phonology. Not having a Japanese informant to hand, I can't really say, but I've noticed this in other languages.

          As for the l/n variance in Catonese and Mandarin, it's not a new thing. I've heard it in the word for South lan / nan, as in Hailan / Hainan (the island). But especially in the Mandarin of a Cantonese speaking friend where n > l and sh/x > s.
      • Re: japonese Phonetic help

        Mon, August 29, 2005 - 8:51 AM
        All:

        Of course, Jheem is right. I was sitting, practicing Nihongo vocabulary and obviously overdoing it. I, too, have heard Japanese speakers use an English-style L, but attributed it to hyper-correction. I never heard my obachan make this sound.

        The Cantonese shift is news to me. I'll check with my cousin (I'm half Chinese on my mother's side.) who is a native Cantonese speaker if he's heard this - but it would be among Chinese-Americans, with maybe some Hong Kong doi among 'em. Does this happen in Toy san hua, too?

        Kurumada in Arcata
        • Re: japonese Phonetic help

          Sat, September 10, 2005 - 9:10 AM
          I would attribute L more to playing with different sounds and accents for effect or variety as a result of exposure to foreign languages. How do you explain the name of www.kiralaberkeley.com/ ? Hypercorrection might explain the appearance of L in Japanese English, but not in Japanese.

          en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_phonology mentions many allophonic processes but none involving R.

          I believe the N->L shift is in young speakers of HK Cantonese. Peripheral communities like US Chinatowns might be more conservative.

          The final section of www.zanhei.com/intro.html mentions phonetic changes in current youth Shanghainese, though these are about vowels and accent, not consonants.

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