compounds

topic posted Sat, August 13, 2005 - 1:42 AM by  Inga
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This matter is becoming very undescribable. Compounds like fashion -every day something new. I still haven`t found any good book about them. Reading and collecting compounds from any book is more coplex than getting information from any grammar book. For example: "mother of pearl"-compound, but "mother of son"-non compound, other compounds take prefixes (strangely):anti, co, de, pro, re, un etc. -it looks more word formation than compounding. The explanations about it that lay in the books is that one should look up the dictionary for word origin. And what about other grammar books explaining that two or more words can be absolutely independent when separated from compound? For example: co-,pro-, re- cannot go independently. Is someone clever out here to bring some light into this matter?
posted by:
Inga
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  • Re: compounds

    Sun, August 14, 2005 - 6:59 AM
    <look up the dictionary for word origin. >

    Etymology

    English is a combination of 5 languages
    Some words combine elements of several of those languages

    People spoke 2-3 languages and the languages competed and became a hybrid
    Depending on social class, region of Britain.

    Gaelic (original inhabitants)
    Angle- saxon (moved in after the collapse of the roman empire)
    Norse (Vikings)
    Norman French (Conquerors ruling class 2nd generation Vikings from france who spoke French)
    Latin (church men)

    <co-,pro-, re- cannot go independently>

    Co is from com latin for with

    Companion

    Someone who you share bread with
    A friend or at least a travel partner

    In Spanish Companero/a
    • Re: companion

      Sun, August 14, 2005 - 7:08 AM
      did i need to mention pan means bread? even in japanese a pre tokugawa migration. and pan is something we use to fry eggs, go figure ;}

      but the ending ion is french. correct me if i am wrong. something to do with the collusion of church and state.

      a friend is: freund (froynd) in german but ven pronounced venn in norse in this instance we are in to what is called the great vowel shift in standard english where we moved from middle to early modern, and the newer spelling ie; is french. This is an example of of the smash of 3 languages in one word.
      • Re: companion

        Sun, August 14, 2005 - 7:37 AM
        It`s interesting to tackle a question of etymology with you. English compounds very rarelly have phonetical changes. What would you say about a word "semiformal"? It`s a compound, but "semi" doesn`t go independently, isn`t it? All I want just distinguish compounds from non-compounds.
      • Re: companion

        Mon, August 22, 2005 - 10:05 AM
        " . . . pan means bread . .even in Japanese . ."

        This isn't a coincidence, it's a borrowing. Japanese were receiving Portuguese travelers in the 16th century, before imposing isolation in the 17th after their disastrous bid for empire against Korea. Hm. The Portuguese were their source for guns as well, though I don't understand the etymology of "teppo" "gun".

        Kuregu in Arcata
    • Re: compounds

      Sun, August 14, 2005 - 7:19 AM
      I didn` mean "companion", I was talking about something like "co-operation, cooperation". I also know that co-, re- cannot be used independently, but I`m talking about the grammar of different books that clashes and it`s difficult to find the truth that I`m looking for. Every language had/has influence of other languages.
      • Re: compounds

        Sun, August 14, 2005 - 7:24 AM
        <I also know that co-, re- cannot be used independently>

        < > indicates i am excerpting your quote.

        <Every language had/has influence of other languages.>

        are we talking about all language or english only?
        • Re: compounds

          Sun, August 14, 2005 - 7:53 AM
          Yes, I`m talking about English compounds only. But other languages have similar constructions, but somehow they are easier to distinguish, even though they have phonetical changes more often than English compounds have.
          This summer in London I noticed compound " Hall-in-the -Fields". Hyphens usually occur when a compound becomes more videly used or in order not to be confused within, for example; 'acetic acid solution' and "acetic-acid solution". So, let`s say, for example that I`m reading an old book (talking only about modern English). There are some non-hyphenated compounds, but they are used as one phonetical unit-it means they are compounds... Unfortunately, looking up dictionaries one can find jus some references of a word being a "combination" (the word that is used in dictionaries).
  • Re: compounds

    Sun, August 14, 2005 - 12:52 PM
    The word companion is not a compound. It consists of three morphemes, at least in its Vulgar Latin version. Compounds usually consist of stand-alone words: e.g., blackbird, baseball, truckdriver. I would not really call "mother of pearl" or "mother of son" compounds, but perhaps periphrastic idioms. Co(m)-, re-, de-, et al. are usually called bound morphemes meaning that they cannot stand by themselves.
    • Re: compounds

      Mon, August 15, 2005 - 6:47 AM
      Thank you for giving your opinion on this matter. N+N are the easiest compounds to distinguish -that`s not a problem. "mother-of -perl", "salt and pepper" are compounds, whether " mother of sth," is not. I have got other view of compounds: when bound morphemes together with free morphemes make a compound ( these bound morphemes are:anti,co, de, hyper,hypo, infra, ultra, intra, mackro, mickro, non, pre, pseud(o), pro, over, re, semi, supra, super, semi, sub, trans, un, post, under). As far as I know, only one of these bound morphemes can stand by itself. Here I`ve placed the knowledge I took from books and the Internet. So, for me , the classic explanation that compounds-words made of more than one free morpheme clashes with examples that I`ve placed above. This is the problem.
      • Re: compounds

        Mon, August 15, 2005 - 7:51 AM
        You're welcome. And, of course, you are free to use linguistic terms in non-standard ways. But to what effect? Why stop at calling "salt and pepper" a compound, rather than a binomial? Why not call "the book is red" a compound, too, rather than a sentence? Is there anything to be gained by collapsing the distinction between derivational morphology and compounds? But, perhaps that is my problem ...
        • Re: compounds

          Mon, August 15, 2005 - 10:38 AM
          "Salt and pepper" is a compound when it`s a unit in the sentece (the way Internet says), but when it`s not a unit -it isn`t a compound, for example: "I like salt and pepper". "The book is red" is a noun phrase. It isn`t a unit phonetically...
          No no no, it isn`t your problem -it`s mine, because I`m confused by absolutelly different theories and I`m trying to find the truth, because I have not just talk about compunds, I have to collect them from the books (early modern English and modern English ones). Therefore, I find hard to put all these theories into practice. I, definitely, would like to agree with you-it would make my life much easier. But...
          Sorry to disturb you again.
          • Re: compounds

            Mon, August 15, 2005 - 11:22 AM
            But seriously, where on the internet (or who on the internet) suggests that "salt and pepper" is a compound? In English, we only have spaces or lack of same to go by (although compounds are probably treated differently syntactically than phrases), but in a language like Sanskrit or Greek, the words in a compound lack the inflectional endings (like case) which indicate how the different words in a compound relate to one another (e.g., raamasitau is a compound in Sanskrit meaning roughly the same thing as the English phrase "Rama and Sita" which might be rendered as a phrase in Sanskrit as "raamas sitaa ca" i.e., two nouns with nominative singular endings (inflectional morphology) and a conjunction).

            Seriously, if you have two or more linguistic theories that are in conflict with one another, you should not be trying to compound them into a huge conflicting theory, but rather you should be choosing the theory that fits your data. If somebody says that "salt and pepper" is a compound in English, it's up to them to prove it. (Unless of course, it's one of your advisors, then you're up a creek.)

            BTW, I'd say that "the book is red" is not a noun phrase, but a sentence. You also imply that a binomial, such as "salt and pepper" is a "unit phonetically". Not sure what to make of this. It's a common enough phrase, and that's why it might be different from other phrases which are less fixed. You might want to look at Yakov Malkiel's essay "Studies in Irreversible Binomials" for some more information.
            • Re: compounds

              Mon, August 15, 2005 - 12:08 PM
              If you go to google and ask for English compounds, the second page given is about "salt and pepper" as a compound. Have a look.
              As about phrases, I could say that all sentences are made of them. This time sentence=noun phrase. Linguists usually like to use such a term "phrase" than talking in general and naming it "sentence". You cannot deny that it isn`t a noun phrase, that`s for sure.
              As about my science advisor-she is on holiday at the moment, so I do not wish to bother her. I just know that she would not like these different theories as well. But on the other hand-it`s my work and she will not be the only one to value me. I mean it`s not up to us, we like it or not, the work should be done perfectly.
              • Re: compounds

                Mon, August 15, 2005 - 1:06 PM
                It's best just to give the URL, but I found the Wikipedia article to which you refer. To me, and I'll check in some references today, "salt and pepper" is in no way a compound. If it is, so is "you and I" and "silent but deadly". Too strange for me. In a grammar of English, there is a difference between a noun phrase and a sentence. They are not the same thing. Noun phrases tend not to have finite forms of verbs in them. I am unaware of a rule:

                NP => NP Verb Adj

                Good luck on your work.
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: compounds

              Mon, August 15, 2005 - 12:08 PM
              Thanks for fielding some of the syntactic angles here, jheem. In my experience, noun-noun compounds are defined as independent nouns strung together to make a phrase; this is a productive phenomenon, and the compounds are not necessarily ossified as a phrase.

              Speaking of the productivity of these compounds, there was an article -itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/lan...2296.html - recently on the Language Log where Arnold Zwicky noticed this phrase on a newspaper box:

              NEWSRACK ORDINANCE COMPLIANCE VIOLATION WARNING AND FIXTURE IMPOUNDMENT NOTICE; CORRECTIVE ACTION REQUIRED

              Two nice bureaucratic compounds there. :-)
              • Re: compounds

                Mon, August 15, 2005 - 1:16 PM
                Zwicky seems to be using compound in this same way. I wonder if it's a generativist kind of thing. Where do we draw the line? Is unknown (un- + know + -n) a compound? What do we gain by collapsing the distinction between inflectional morphology and compounds? Is reanalyze (re- + analyze) a compound? Is truckdriver (truck + [driver + er]) a compound? Maybe compounding in English is different from compounding in other more inflected languages. Now I'm just confused. Oh, well.
                • Re: compounds

                  Mon, August 15, 2005 - 1:29 PM
                  Sorry about noun phrase-holidays:). That sentence definitely is : S=NP+VP.
                  All the examples given by you are compounds -the way they explain. That is my question that I`ve asked in my very first request. What`s the difference between compounds and word formation, compounds and idioms?
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                    Re: compounds

                    Mon, August 15, 2005 - 3:15 PM
                    this thread con fused my brain. I went to this site. Might not be what you're looking for, but it made senses to me. It sorts compounds out into several main varieties.
                    Is the word "compound" a Latin compound of the two words "put" and "together"?

                    webster.commnet.edu/grammar/...ounds.htm
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                    Re: compounds

                    Mon, August 15, 2005 - 4:09 PM
                    Sati, well first of all, I took a deep breath and went and got some books and read up on what generativists (i.e., post-Chomskyan linguistics) think of compounding. I started by looking at Anderson 1992, which pretty much convinced that the view I have been espousing in this thread is that of traditional, structuralist/classical linguistics, (pre-Chomsky). There morphology is divided into inflectional, derivational, and compounding. Infelctional and derivational morphology both have to do with roots and affixes. So, boxes (= box + pl. marker, i.e., inflectional), but understand (= under- preverb + stand vb). The traditional wisdom about the differences between inflectional and derivational is that inflectional tends to be quite productive and derivational not so. Also, inflectional morphology keeps words in the same part of speech (syntactic category), wherreas derivational tends to change things, e.g., deadjectival nouns by suffixation in English redness (red adj. + -ness). All these parts are called morphemes, but the inflectional / derivational affixes are called bound morphemes because unlike words they do not occur in isolation.

                    One of the major places I was having trouble is that I basically interpreted "salt and pepper" as a common enough phrase denoting the spices salt and pepper. Not as a modifying term "salt-and-pepper" as in "he has salt-and-pepper hair." So, in my obstinant way it was difficult for me to see how I could interpret "salt and pepper" as a "compound". I guess I can see "salt-and-pepper" as a composite (a term that Anderson uses) modifier. (I would still like to reserve compound for things that look like words rather than hyphenated phrases, but that's my personal quirk and is probably not shared by many other folks these days.

                    Anyway, I'd take a look at these books for a little more in-depth discussion of compounding:

                    Stephen A. Anderson. 1992. A-Morphous Morphology. CUP.
                    Mark Aronoff. 1976. Word Formation in Generative Grammar. MIT.
                    Leonard Bloomfield. 1933. Language.
                    Peter H. Matthews. 1974. Morphology. CUP.
                    Anna Maria Di Sciullo and Edwin Williams. 1987. On the Definition of Word. MIT.
                    Elizabeth Selkirk. 1982. The Syntax of Words. MIT.

                    Hope this helps.
                    • Re: compounds

                      Tue, August 16, 2005 - 12:25 AM
                      Thank you very much for your patience and cooperation. You are really helping me out.
                      I do know about inflexional and derivational morphology. But it doesn`t bring any sense knowing it. Compounds are compounds and there should be one fixed and clear explanation about it, don`t you think?
                      As about "salt and pepper" I`d like to say that I have a copy of the same site made last spring- no hyphens there existed, now -it`s hyphenated.
                      Also thanks for giving some advice on books. I analyzed Peter H. Matthews. 1974. Morphology. CUP. already. He shares a classical view.
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: compounds

                  Mon, August 15, 2005 - 6:43 PM
                  I think Zwicky's focussed on the two compounds "NEWSRACK ORDINANCE COMPLIANCE VIOLATION WARNING" and "FIXTURE IMPOUNDMENT NOTICE" - both of those are straightforward stringing together of nouns.

                  I believe compounds are always defined as being composed of independent words, not dependent morphemes like "un-" or "-er". Of course spelling is just an indication of how frequently the compound is used, and how long it's been around. So "truckdriver" is a compound of "truck" and "driver" - dig any deeper, and you're getting into the affixes, not independent words.

                  (btw, think you meant derivational, not inflectional morphology there - all your examples are derivational - inflectional is when you have super productive morphology performing a grammatical function, like plurals and tenses and gender markings.)
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                    Re: compounds

                    Tue, August 16, 2005 - 12:07 AM
                    Usually people, before they make their mind, do some search. You are just repeating what has been said, that`s not a very difficult task, is it?
                    I do advise you to look at the site WIL gave (I was there some time ago), and there some more:

                    www.epri.com/corporate/d.../style3.html
                    www.answers.com/topic/english-compound
                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: compounds

                      Tue, August 16, 2005 - 8:06 AM
                      Did look at the site - sorry I don't have time to do more research, but I'm going off what I learned for my PhD in syntax and semantics.
                      • Unsu...
                         

                        Re: compounds

                        Tue, August 16, 2005 - 8:10 AM
                        Sorry Sati - just saw what you meant about my repeating things - that's because me and jheem posted at exactly the same time, so I didn't see his post. Trust me, though, I am a professional. :-)
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: compounds

                    Tue, August 16, 2005 - 6:00 AM
                    "I believe compounds are always defined as being composed of independent words"

                    That's how I feel, and most traditionalists, but generativists don't necessarily see the three-way distinction to be all that important. Take a look at some of the later books I cited above. The feeling there (especially Anderson) seems to be that sentences have structure and so do words. Is there some possible way for sentences and words to share a grammar. That collapses morphology and syntax. This is seen as a good thing.

                    Sorry about my forms, I had included a boxes (box n. + -s pl) , too, but it seemed to get erased during editing of the post.
                    • Re: compounds

                      Tue, August 16, 2005 - 7:50 AM
                      I`ve searched the Net for the books you refered-not much. Have to make my way to the library one day.
                      But "hyper, hypo, infra, ultra, intra, macro, mickro, pseud(o),super, over, semi, trans, post and under" seem fine to me. I still think that these ones can make compouns, as they are free morphemes in other languages. But others, especially "re, un, co" -I don`t wish to see the way sb. likes.
                      As for now, I`m still in confusion. Just I have had an experience about compound theories which could drive crazy not only me.
                      Thanks.
                      • Unsu...
                         

                        Re: compounds

                        Thu, August 18, 2005 - 8:41 AM
                        as a reference i recommend judith levi's "the syntax and semantics of nominal compounds". it's from the '70's and is couched in a theoretical framework that nobody buys anymore, but has lots of useful observations and data.

                        a note on usage: words like "snake eater" and "apple mashing" have affixes and are usually considered compounds, more specifically "synthetic compounds". these constructions have played a central part in studies of compounding in english. there is still no consensus on the question of internal internal structure: whether it's [[snake eat]er] or [[snake][[eat][er]]].

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