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Modern English does not have a distinction such as "tu" and "vous" in French. Do most other languages have this kind of linguistic distinction between familiar and formal terms of address?
Examples:
tu/vous
du,Ihr/Sie,sie
du/ni
Is this true?
If so, why?
Or, why has it fallen out of use in English?
Examples:
tu/vous
du,Ihr/Sie,sie
du/ni
Is this true?
If so, why?
Or, why has it fallen out of use in English?
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Re: familiar pronouns
Sun, February 27, 2005 - 1:22 PMI think for German, that should be:
du,Ihr/Sie -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Sun, February 27, 2005 - 3:18 PMThe familar singular pronouns in English used to "thou" and "thee" with the adjective thine. These corresponded respectively to the German cognates "du," "dich" and "dein." You was the formal second person pronoun, but eventually replaced "thou" and "thee" for all situations, sparing English speakers the anguish of trying to figure out which pronoun to use. . -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Sun, February 27, 2005 - 11:12 PMYup, I do know about "thee" and "thou" etc. I'm really referring to modern English and the comparison with other modern languages.
I think people who speak English nowadays do not use "thee" and "thou" unless they are performing Shakespeare or similar, or they come from an isolated village in Yorkshire, or maybe they are at least 200 years old!! Please correct me if I mistaken!
Being a native English speaker, I find the simple "you" eminently simple, practical and sufficient. The binary mode of defining familiarity, expressed in German as "du" and "Sie", is to me strange, and inherently awkward.
I believe there are *vaguely* similar notions in English involving such things as forms of address, as in "Mr. Henson" in place of "Jim". However, I think English really does have just the single word "you" for 2nd person singular and plural. Isn't that so?
I am just interested in the topic, because it seems as though every language apart from English does have distinct pronouns, so that the expression of familiarity is "built in" to the grammar of the language. -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Mon, February 28, 2005 - 3:14 PMI don't speak Japanese, but I believe that their pronoun system is even more complex than it is in Indo-European langauges. For example, they have different first person pronouns, depending on the gender of the speaker and the relationship of the speaker to the listener.
As fra as "thou" and "thee" go, I don't know of any miodern dialect, which still uses these pronouns. The Quakers mainatined these pronouns for a while to refer to fellow Quakers, but even they eventually dispatched with the practice. -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Tue, March 1, 2005 - 4:07 AMI have also heard about how complex Japanese is in this area. It would be interesting to hear what Japanese speakers think about this.
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Unsu...
Re: familiar pronouns
Tue, March 1, 2005 - 2:26 AM"I think people who speak English nowadays do not use "thee" and "thou" unless they are performing Shakespeare or similar, "
I see new agers use "thou" and" thee" evey once in a while when they are trying to make something inane sound important. It's really funny. -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Thu, May 12, 2005 - 12:33 PMI see new agers use "thou" and" thee" evey once in a while when they are trying to make something inane sound important. It's really funny.
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lol. and usually wrong. My basic understanding is that "thee, thou, thine, and thy" are the INFORMAL (tu) form. yet these "new agers" have seemed to formalize it. ;-)
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Re: familiar pronouns
Fri, March 18, 2005 - 10:40 AMMandarin just has 'ni' and Cantonese just has 'leih' (useda be 'neih' but initial n's have shifted to l's)
unrelatedly, whenever i hear fok talking about how gender-marking in language is the cause of patriarchy, i always point out how there is no gender in Mandarin (or Cantonese for that matter), yet patriarchy is alive and well in China. -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Fri, March 18, 2005 - 4:03 PMGrammatical gender is not always based on biological sex. Bantu languages have over a dozen genders. -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Mon, March 21, 2005 - 12:50 PMThat's interesting. Is there any significance attached to the genders in those languages? I wonder how they arise. It seems to me to be a clumsy, arbitrary and unnecessary mechanism, but it must be practical and useful, otherwise it would surely not exist.
Every non-English language that I have had a glance at seems to have some kind of familiar "you" and formal "you". I'm just wondering if there is any other language at all whose pronoun makes no distinction. -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Wed, March 23, 2005 - 10:21 PM"Is there any significance attached to the genders in those languages?"
Yes, there are rough meaning groupings. In Swahili, for example, with a few exceptions, all nouns referring to humans are in the M-Wa class. Most of the other noun classes are not so neat in their groupings, but meaning plays a role and sound plays a role.
The word "gender" in grammar originally meant noun class. Since the meaning of "gender" has been taken over by sexual gender, we usually use the word "noun class" to refer to other forms of grammatical gender.
I took Swahili, which is very representative of Bantu grammar, so I will use that as an example. Swahili has ... been a while, but around a dozen noun classes or genders. In European languages, with two or three genders, basically all you have to worry about is making adjectives agree with the noun gender. In Swahili, not only adjectives but verbs and prepositions must agree with the gender.
And every gender has its own distinct forms of singular and plural. For example, M-Wa class means that the singular form of each noun begins with the prefix m- and the plural form with wa-. Example: mtoto = child, watoto = children. Ki-Vi class: kichwa = head, vichwa = heads. Adjectives, verbs and prepositions must agree in gender (noun class) and number, by way of prefixes which are usually the same prefixes as for the nouns. This results in many sentences which are highly alliterative. Like, a sentence about a noun in Ki- class can have every word beginning with ki-.
Noun classes (in languages that have them) are partly governed by sound and partly by meaning. The historical evidence is that gender in Indo-European languages was originally sound-governed -- classes of nouns with certain ending sounds taking adjectives that agreed in sound, and only gradually did these noun classes become identified with sexual gender. In the Bantu languages, the relationship with sound as well as meaning is obvious, because whoever came up with Swahili really loved sound patterns and alliteration.
As a beginning Swahili student, it's like, why all these noun classes to make things difficult, it would be a pretty easy language without them. But it doesn't take long before the noun classes become part of the whole flavor and texture and charm and rich quirkiness of the language. -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Tue, September 11, 2007 - 12:01 PMI think I'm beginning to see the re-emergence of the familiar case. On the surface, it just sounds like bad grammar (Me and my friends a going to the mall.) But the usage is becoming more universal among young adults, and I think the vernacular is trying to bring back the intent of Thee and Thou, with Me and My, being new familiar pronouns.
(Either that, or the current generation is really confused about objective and subjective cases.)
What think you all?
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Re: familiar pronouns
Thu, May 12, 2005 - 12:36 PMI'm just wondering if there is any other language at all whose pronoun makes no distinction.
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Lots of them, you just have to get off the indo-european root.
Lakota and it's siouxian neighbors do not make distinctions of formal/non-formal. IN fact, they do not formally encode "he/she/it" into thier langage. That is, "if there is no pronoun, assume it's "he/she/it".
is that what you are asking? -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Sat, May 14, 2005 - 5:04 PMYes, that is what I'm asking. That is very interesting. I have heard about eastern/oriental languages and I got the impression that they all had pronouns that have varying formality embedded into the language.
It is interesting how languages have differing "areas of complexity". It seems that languages with many cases Latin, Finnish or Russian are extremely complicated, but I guess they are just complicated in a different way - the native speakers obviously don't have any problem with the language. But perhaps English is in other areas more complex than those other languages..
Compared with Latin, say, English replaces very complex cases with a set of prepositions. The formality grading of terms of address has been simplified. It all seems to be easier than the antecedent languages, but perhaps it just seems that way because I don't know those other languages
It is interesting that the Lakota language has an even simpler pronoun system. I wonder if other parts of the language are much more complex than equivalent forms in English. -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Sat, May 14, 2005 - 10:59 PMWow. see, here's my gut reaction. "simple" and "complex" are useless terms when addressing a language.
Any and all languages ultimatly can convey any and all ideas. It just that each language may have to dance a different jig to get there.
I will give you one simple example. Russian has no articles. To me, an English speaker, there is an enherant obvious difference between "a tree" and "the tree" that is expressed by teh use of the article. And, chances are, you the listener would not need teh "a" or "the" *most* of the time. But if there is a point where you really need to make it clear that it is *the* tree and not just any old tree, Russian would find a way to do this, with the prounoun "this", or perhaps with an adjective or adjective clause "green tree here by the door".
On the other hand, we have no habitual tense. In some african languages, there is a specific tense of a verb that says "each and every day i go to the store". But, clearly, english works if you don't mind useing "each and every".
It is interesting how languages have differing "areas of complexity".
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Very much so. :-) and equally frustrating to students of whatever languages as they say "just what exactly is a verb first language, anyhow." ;-)
It is interesting that the Lakota language has an even simpler pronoun system.
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well, again, simple from one perspective. But highly complex from teh sense taht the listener needs to remember the topic and pay more careful attention if there are two or three "subjects", (john, Jane and the cat) cause all of those three get "it". :-)
I'd also be curious to ask nativly bilingual kids, which of thier languages was "easier" to "gramatize" (for lack of a better word) in school.
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Unsu...
Re: familiar pronouns
Thu, May 19, 2005 - 3:40 AM<On the other hand, we have no habitual tense. In some african languages, there is a specific tense of a verb that says "each and every day i go to the store". But, clearly, english works if you don't mind useing "each and every">
i think "habitual" is considered aspect rather than tense.
i'm told that african american english has overt marking of habitual aspect, using "be". "she be going to the store" means "she habitually goes to the store".
here's a good (possible) contrast:
she don't eat meat (= she is vegetarian)
she don't be eating meat (= she doesn't eat meat habitually, but she might from time to time)
i don't remember if i checked this with a native speaker, though.
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Re: familiar pronouns
Tue, March 22, 2005 - 1:06 AMOh. I overlooked your response - no gender in Mandarin? Okay. That's one language then... it's the language of a good proportion of the planet, isn't it?
Digression: A couple of years ago, I saw a poster advertisement saying that by 2007 more than 50% of the internet content will be in Chinese. I wonder if that is true.
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Re: familiar pronouns
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 3:39 PMMandarin has ni (informal) and nin (formal). I don't remember if you can say ninmen as a polite plural, but you can definitely say nimen.
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Unsu...
Re: familiar pronouns
Tue, March 29, 2005 - 2:51 PMThere are varieties of English that make distinctions between singular and plural pronouns, but not with thee and thou. For example, second person plural yous is used in parts of Nothern England, as well as second person singular ye. In Ireland and Australia, the second person plural form youse is sometimes used.
Thou is still used in rural areas of England and is not just restricted to isolated parts of Yorkshire or people performing Shakespere. -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Mon, April 4, 2005 - 1:38 PMWhat seems to be happening right now in colloquial English is that the 3rd person plural "they" is emerging as a gender-neutral 3rd person singular. "The phone rang but then they hung up on me." Some people don't like it, but I think it beats the hell out of "he or she". Ick. -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Mon, April 4, 2005 - 7:28 PMYes, "they" and "their" are becoming gender neutral third person singular pronouns. In fact, most people do not even realise that it is incorrect grammar.
I believe that in Farsi, the third person singular pronoun is always gender neutral. -
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Unsu...
Re: familiar pronouns
Mon, April 4, 2005 - 10:50 PMIt can't be "incorrect grammar" if people use it that way regularly. In the sense implied by your use of "incorrect grammar", "correct grammar" really just refers to the style or dialect used by the upper classes. Grammar can only be "incorrect" if it's unintelligible, or atleast idiosyncratic. -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Tue, April 5, 2005 - 6:37 PMEpicene (or generic) third person singular they has been "emerging" since Chaucer's time. -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Sun, April 10, 2005 - 6:20 PMI did not know that "they" as a gender neutral third person pronoun traced its roots back to Early Modern English. One would think that it would have become standardised by now. -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Sun, April 10, 2005 - 6:45 PMIt was being used until the 18th century when self-annointed grammahooligans began to deprecate it. -
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Re: familiar pronouns - topic shift, slightly
Thu, May 12, 2005 - 12:43 PMOK, as you all will see, i'm new. :-) I don't know if you are supposed to start a new topic of a comment elicits a question, or if you just keep it here. so, advise me and like the great sheeple i am, i shall follow.
anyhow...
It was being used until the 18th century when self-annointed grammahooligans began to deprecate it.
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I've been curious about something we never discussed in class - and that is the role of "formalized writing" on the evoution of language.
Jheem states that in teh 1800's we began to see "gramarians" (in thier shcool marm, ain't ain't a word, sense) start to tell us what is or is not correct. Prior to that, langauge just went where it went.
Today, you have the French Academy pounding its fist and stomping like a 3 year old to say "no changes to our langage, ever !". You have text after text that teaches us how to correctly use oft "mis-used" grammer (you and I, you and me).... This *has* to be slowing down the natural evoultion of languages, doesn't it?
No other time in human history has there been emphesis on the "right" way to write.
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Re: familiar pronouns
Wed, April 20, 2005 - 6:42 AMSome European languages borrowed the French-style use of 2nd plural as polite 2nd singular directly by analogy with French itself. For example, Russian ty, vy.
Brazilian Portuguese is an example of a language that is back down to a single "you" pronoun (voce) for the most part, except in some regions. European Portuguese is completely different.
Japanese is best described as not having a distinct category of pronouns at all, but just nouns designating people that go in and out of fashion. For example, "kanojo" is usually given as Japanese for "she", but it can also be used as a noun meaning "my girlfriend". Pronoun use is never obligatory (in fact using a pronoun is usually ruder than using a more specific reference to a person, and avoided if possible) and there are also no obligatory inflections to carry person and number information.
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Re: familiar pronouns
Sat, March 31, 2007 - 5:28 PMIn Turkish;
Sen = you (familiar, casual)
Siz = you (unfamiliar, formal)
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Re: familiar pronouns
Tue, September 11, 2007 - 6:57 PMWhere I grew up in NY, it was common to for people to use 'you' and 'yous' the same way French speakers use tu and vous. This was not an affectation; it was slang, not proper, but very common. It wasn't familiar and formal, it was singular and plural. Even if you didn't use the same terms in return, you understood what the speaker was referring to. Yous had an understanding. -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Tue, September 11, 2007 - 9:18 PMreminds me of the southern "y'all". -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 2:03 PM...and don't forget "all y'all" to indicate an even larger group.
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Re: familiar pronouns
Sun, October 14, 2007 - 12:20 PMIn Hungarian there's a distinctin as well:
you (2nd person, singular, informal) - te
you (2nd person, singular, formal) - Ön - we usually use capital letter to emphasize respect
you (2nd person, plural, informal) - ti
you (2nd person, plural, formal) - Önök - capitalize to emphasize respect
In Hungarian it is very important to address people properly. It is quite complicated in my opinion. For example, growing up, being 9-10 years old, I would address a 40 year old man with the formal "you". A few years later, turning 14, the man would address me with the formal "you" to show respect and manners because now I am a young lady. However I am still sort of a kid and find it very awkward overall to address him with anything, because I'm not sure which one I should use.
Oh, I hated it.
here in the US it's just "you". Simple, but it lacks respect, in my humble opinion.
Marianna -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Sun, October 14, 2007 - 9:04 PMspeaking as a native speaker of English, i can say for sure that the simple "you" has no *dsrespect* implied, either. it is just simply neutral. -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Thu, October 18, 2007 - 10:26 PMSorry, let me rephrase what I said.
What I meant is that I like it more that in some of the languages you can really emphasize "respect" with the pronouns (as well as conjugation, etc).
I felt really weird in the beginning when I asked an 80 year old lady " how are you?" the You just by itself felt disrespectful, because that's how I would address a 15 year old as well, and in my language we would definitely use different pronouns. I had to get used to it.
Marianna -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 7:47 AMWhat's funny is i find "thou" "you" pronous to not be out of respect, in many contexts of non-english langauges, but inforced submission, enforced (reinforced) definition of status, etc.
I find it insane that i must address a professor who i do *not* respect as "You" and not "thou" just cause that's what the language code demands. -
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Re: familiar pronouns
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 2:36 AM"ka" (informal) and "kayo" (formal) mean "you" in tagalog.
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Thai
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 2:08 PMThai has a very elaborate pronominal system. Although there is a most-commonly used set of 1P and 2P pronouns (polite and intimate, phǒm/dichǎn (male/female speaker) and khun vs. chǎn and thəə) which are enough to get a student of the language around without incident, there are at least eighteen distinct sets of pronouns in modern Thai, more than a dozen of which are in common use. Their use varies based on a great number of factors, mostly having to do with relative age and status of speakers. There are also distinct pronominal registers for royal and sacred use, pronouns considered either intimate or vulgar depending on context, and more.
I say 'at least' because there are also a number of pronoun substitutes, including first names, nicknames, and kinship terms. So to show respect to someone a little older than you, you would call them phîi (elder sibling), more or less interchangeably with khun (the polite-neutral 2P pronoun) The use of each variant is dictated by sociolinguistic considerations. Some are quite interesting---for example, nǔu, literally 'mouse,' can be used as either a first- or second-person pronoun by females of any age, with a vaguely infantilizing nuance, as well as a second-person pronoun to children or much younger women.
There's also a curiously large amount of pronoun overlap--like the pronoun above that can be either 1P or 2P, several pronouns can be either second or third person, depending on context. -
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Re: Thai
Thu, February 21, 2008 - 6:35 PMIn my neck of the franco-phone world. We are hardly saying <Vous>any more. <Vous> is used mainly for writing and literary works. We also say <Toi> as <Tway> not as <Twa>.
Sorry I don't know much about English, even though I speak it. -
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Re: Vous
Wed, February 27, 2008 - 11:54 AMDo you still use "vous" in the plural sense, like "y'all" or "all y'all"?
As much as i love English, i do find myself wishing we had a few more distictions, in plurals especially. I'm not a southerner but i've been using "y'all" for years because there is no appropriate equivalent when referring to a group instead of an individual.
I've never heard someone pronounce Toi that way... where exactly are you from? is the <twa> pronunciation dying out everywhere? -
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Re: Vous
Wed, February 27, 2008 - 2:25 PMWe say it like that but it is hardly ever needed.
Nous continuons de cette façon, mais ne c'est pas souvent nécessaire.
<<Tway>> is I guess an older way of saying it. Most Metropolitan speakers say we sound old fashioned. I don't think <<twa>> is "not" spoken any where else, old french is dead, except here because our settlers came here before the French language organisation.
I am from Northern Maine, Vallée Saint-Jean. Franco-American/Acadian culture is the main culture up here. -
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Re: Vous
Thu, February 28, 2008 - 3:50 PMpas souvent necessaire? pourquoi pas? how else do you designate a plural you?
i learned Parisian/Schoolbook French in school, but my father's family is from Quebec. when i visited there it was a bit of a shock at first but ultimately it was an easy transition. i was amazed how much i could understand despite the pronounciation & vocab differences.
i don't remember much, unfortunately. that was a long time ago. (i remember they call billiard balls "les hautes et les bas" (sp?) instead of "solids and stripes"... practical vocabulary always sticks! *laugh*)
thanks for the info.
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