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Did anyone see Law & Order: Criminal Intent last night? Detective Goren asked a suspect "Do you speak any other languages . . . Asian languages? Because I noticed you have a slight glottal stop." (The suspect spoke Mandarin.)
A "slight glottal stop"? What is that, exactly? And, heaven forbid that glottal stops actually get used in English. Perhaps there is an opening at NBC for a linguistic consultant.
A "slight glottal stop"? What is that, exactly? And, heaven forbid that glottal stops actually get used in English. Perhaps there is an opening at NBC for a linguistic consultant.
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Mon, January 16, 2006 - 1:23 PMGlottal stops?
Uh-oh!
Huh-uh, we don't got'em here! :-)
I didn't see the episode, but Mandarin doesn't have glottal stops in general - hm, I've only studied a couple of years, but it seems a glottal stop might occur inbetween vocalic syllables - Ta shi ? Rbenren. "He is Japanese." (Using the ? for glottal stop.) I'm sure you could say it without the glottal stop and sound fine.
Anyway, if the "clue' in the show was that the person was not a native speaker of Mandarin and spoke instead, Cantonese, then it's a valid observation. Cantonese has many more glottal stops accompanying final stops as in the words for 7,8,10. cha?t, ba?k, su?p vs. Mandarin chi, ba, shr.
Just as an aside, I remember having a "light-bulb" moment when my phonetics teacher pointed out that Japanese puts a glottal stop at the end of almost everything! Soo desu? Hai?
Iie? etc.
Craig in Arcata -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Mon, January 16, 2006 - 1:31 PMGlottal stops are quite common in English and many other languages. They occur at the beginnings of words that begin with a vowel. I saw the episode, too, and couldn't make hide nor hair out of what "Inspector" Goren said. I have never noticed more glottal stops in Cantonese than in Mandarin. Are you sure you don't mean unreleased final stops? (-p, -t, and -k.) -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Mon, January 16, 2006 - 2:57 PMMandarin does not use unreleased final stops such as -p, -t, or -k.
I didn't see the show, but what may have been meant is that the suspect's glottals were exaggerated in a manner that suggested non-native use. Or the statement may have been used merely to confuse the suspect and undermine their confidence.
Better ways to spot Mandarin speakers would be the relatively static 'o', putting a subtle 'y' before 'i', extra tongue retroflexion on 'sh', 'ch' and 'r', heavy aspiration on 'h' and awkward releases between plosives and immediately succeeding consonants. The letter 'v' is also a problem. -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Mon, January 16, 2006 - 4:17 PMI did not mean to imply that Mandarin had final stops, but that Cantonese does is well known. The dialog in the scene didn't make any sense to me. -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Tue, January 17, 2006 - 1:51 PM*grins* I love you guys. only would you all enjoy a debate about manderian linguistics and LA Law .
WAY TO GO. :-)
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Tue, January 17, 2006 - 4:39 PMJheem:
I realize that there are unreleased final stops, but I recall doing some transcription and including glottal stops either with or in place of the unreleased stops. I'm going over the few words in my head and I think there is a glottal stop there. Compared with just an unreleased stop, I really hear the difference, BUT I'll hunt down my Cantonese informants and give 'em the once over!
Ho le!
Craig -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Tue, April 25, 2006 - 4:03 AMIf I recall correctly, some dialects of Cantonese tend to replace the final -p -t -k with glottal stops in rapid speech. Toisaanese, maybe?
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Mon, January 23, 2006 - 2:31 PMPerhaps it's a dialect of Mandarin that the suspect was speaking? In the dialect of North-East Ireland, words like "butter", "hitter" "litter" etc are pronounced with a glottal stop where the "tt" should be. Perhaps it was slang the suspect was speaking? But then the chance of the "Inspector" knowing not only Mandarin, but a dialect thereof, are pretty slim. -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Tue, January 24, 2006 - 2:10 PMI'm still not sure what a glottal stop is. Can anyone give some examples of glottal stops in English or Mandarin? -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Tue, January 24, 2006 - 2:47 PMWell, I tried to use it humorously in my earlier post.
A glottal stop is when you stop the air (for a moment) at the glottis (the very back of your throat) so no sound occurs. In English it happens in "uh-oh", where the dash is (or the first "h", take your pick.) It is a "stop", meaning a closure where no air escapes or come in.
I think the standard pronunciation of "kitten" is a good example. I haven't heard any native speakers pronounce it "kIt tûn". Not that there are any.
It also occurs in certain dialects or non-standard pronunciations like in "Cap'n" (instead of Captain). The Cockney "tt" in bottle, battle, cattle.
Phoneticians have a joke where one opens one's mouth silently for 2 seconds. "What's that?" says an observer. "A hundred glottal stops in a row!"
Hope that is clear.
Craig in Arcata -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Tue, January 31, 2006 - 12:16 PMOne of the worst is hearing American news refer to the president of Russia as "Pu'en". I doubt if Russians who say something more like "Poochyeen" would know who we are talking about.
English can also voice medial t giving d, as in "congratulations". I'm not sure what determines whether you get d or glottal stop. -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Tue, January 31, 2006 - 2:40 PMBack in Salt Lake (and in other spots I'm sure) locals put glottal stops between l's and s's or t's.
Example: The words/names Nelson, Neilsen, calcium, Molson, Olsen, Bolten, molten are regularly pronounced with a glottal stop. My theory was that it came from Danish, particularly with so many Danish names in the Mormon community. Nilsen, Wilsen, Olsen were typical. Hansen was far more prevalent than Hanson. -sen is the Danish equivalent fo the -son from Swedish.
Regarding the intervocalic t, I regularly see college aged folks spelling it "congradulations." Shudder.
Craig in Arcata -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Wed, February 1, 2006 - 9:19 AMIntervocalic t is usually pronounced as an alveolar flap /ɾ/ in North American English, not as a voiced alveolar stop /d/. It is the same sound as the Spanish single r, as in pero 'but'.
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Wed, February 1, 2006 - 10:00 AM"One of the worst is hearing American news refer to the president of Russia as "Pu'en". I doubt if Russians who say something more like "Poochyeen" would know who we are talking about. "
Da, da! I just heard an NPR reporter doing exactly that after reading your post :-). I think, though, rather than the "chy," it is more like a soft "ty." I can't say it without sounding too Roosky, something that I believe reporters get criticized for - pronunciation sounding overly affected, or pronunciation that their audience of "ignorant Americans" wouldn't understand.
I recall a standup comic making fun of reporters who use good native pronunciation. "This is Fred Jones reporting from "Nicaragua" with a perfect Spanish pronunciation of Nicaragua. He got plenty of laughs.
Hell, I much prefer that to the BBC's Mah-nag-yu-ah, Nick-a-rag-yu-ah. Swear to God! I heard a BBC reporter say that. I just about fell over.
Craig in Arcata -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Wed, February 1, 2006 - 12:45 PMMakes you imagine the BBC announcer riding in his Jag-you-are. -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Wed, February 1, 2006 - 2:17 PMYes! That drives me nuts!
I find it very curious that Britons have such an entrenched difficulty with Spanish pronunciation - I mean, I've heard reports using good pronunciations (well, okay) of French, German, Chinese names, but I remember them ALWAYS saying Perez de Cuellar (Remember the UN General Secretary?) and pronouncing Cuellar to rhyme with "kweller".
Craig -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Wed, February 1, 2006 - 3:35 PMThen there's Byron's pronuciation of Don Juan, in his poem of the same name, as /dOn 'dZuw@n/. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Popular Linguistics
Thu, February 2, 2006 - 6:44 AM"Kweller" might be correct in medieval Espain...how British of them! -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Thu, February 2, 2006 - 11:51 AMin my own experience, United Statesians commit FAR worse offenses against standard Spanish pronunciation than do Britons...& i can't excuse it, since we have so many Mexicans in this country. grrr....Amerikkkan rednecks are just apathetic & racist, that's all. -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Thu, February 2, 2006 - 12:05 PM"in my own experience, United Statesians commit FAR worse offenses against standard Spanish pronunciation than do Britons...& i can't excuse it, since we have so many Mexicans in this country. grrr....Amerikkkan rednecks are just apathetic & racist, that's all."
Okay, I'll concede the 'murkan's monolingual dysfunction, but I maintain the standard RP of Britain treats Spanish abominably and officially! Sure, rednecks mispronounce things! That's because THEY'RE REDNECKS!
There's also plenty of anglicization of Spanish names - like everyplace in California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah and Texas and all other parts of U.S. occupied-Mexico (Whoops - Oh, no! Homeland Security is after me! Guantanamo, here I come!)
Sorry for the digression . . .
I find many more Yanks who shy away from trying to pronounce something out
of their language or apologize profusely - that I can accept. My last name [Kurumada] has been turned from Kukumunga to Krumwater and everything in-between.
I've never heard a U.S.er say Nick-a-rag-yu-a.
Craig in Arcata -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Thu, February 2, 2006 - 1:30 PMShould we expect anyone to pronounce a sound that doesn't exist in their native tongue? For example, if Bush had referred to the former Spanish PM Aznar as "Ath-nar", the grand majority would have no clue what he was talking about. However, calling him "An-sar" was right out. It's true that we have to forgive rednecks, but not that much.
The half-assed pronunciations that cater to the American public are annoying and are really part of a separate half-ass language called Douche. Douches correct us normal people who order a gyro in this country: "Actually, it's pronounced 'yiro'". Actually, Douche, that's the American Douche pronunciation of a Greek word. Let's see if our hispanohablante cashier understands what the hell you're talking about...
But seriously, folks: maybe we can try harder with languages such as Spanish (maybe Greek...), but Westerners cannot be held accountable for incorrect pronunciations of War on Terrorism vocabulary. Yes, when speaking Arabic, you might say a3raaQ, but Iraq works just fine in American speaking circles (or ee-rahk for you Douches) -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Thu, February 2, 2006 - 2:41 PMOh, no. I don't say we have to "forgive" rednecks, just recognize them for what they are.
"Westerners cannot be held accountable for incorrect pronunciations of War on Terrorism vocabulary. Yes, when speaking Arabic, you might say a3raaQ, but Iraq works just fine in American speaking circles (or ee-rahk for you Douches) "
Douche? Moi? Guilty as charged! And proud of it! :-D
Why not hold people accountable for mispronunciations, especially public speakers? I hate mispronouncing things and much prefer to be corrected, particularly with people's names! I can only think of one sound in Arabic which doesn't exist in North American English, the velar 'q'. English speakers using 'k' at least approximate the sound.
I'm not expecting everyone to suddenly pronounce things accent free. How many 'murkins know which tones are in "Beijing"? (3rd and 1st if you were wondering.) I just think it's impolite not to care and not to try. And, of course, there are English names for foreign places. I'm not saying we all have to start saying Moskva, Paree or Roma (I admit I do, just cause I've studied the languages.)
During Reagan, I was in Germany and was very pleased that German newspeople made certain to not trill the Rs in his name. Even better was their use of the American pronunciation of "Caspar Weinberger" , a completely German name, but they pronounced it like Americans do. Just so you know, that was usually the only thing that was pleasant about the news.
By the way, Bush is also reputed to be able to speak Spanish!
I still have a problem with Americans saying EYE-rack and EYE-ran, AY-rab and ROO-sha.
Oh, yes, and I DO say "yiro" with the requisite frication - well, actually I say "döner kebab" because the place I get them is run by a Turkish Cypriot.
So there you are. Let me have it, Ms. Kamilia! I'm unarmed!
Craig in Arcata -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Thu, February 2, 2006 - 4:14 PMOh, there is another Arabic sound which doesn't occur in English. The 'rayn' a velar/uvular voiced fricative.
Craig -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Mon, February 6, 2006 - 7:29 AMCraig dahling,
You have lost your status as a Douche. You see, you actually speak some of the languages in question. The only little bit of douche left in you is your pronunciation of “yiro”, which isn’t fricative (if I remember all of my terminology”. Put a ghamma before “ee” (there are a million ways to spell that sound, or maybe 5) and you get “yee” (with the “y” as in “yay!”), thus bringing you to the requisite “yee-ro”. Or I could be the Douche and that sound is, in fact, a fricative in linguistic speak.
The problem is that we Americans lose out on the foreign language education. We are not half as fortunate as foreigners in that aspect. Your point about Bush speaking Spanish is moot, however; I hope you’re not judging his abilities by his flawless pronunciation of “Fox”. Were you just being sarcastic?
Actually, our pronunciation of Iraq is just as close to the original as the Brits’. The “ay” in “ay-rak” sounds closer to the “ayn” in the Arabic. The British version does the correct vowel at the end, which darkens before the letter “qaf”. However, both nations lose out on that last consonant.
I disagree with your point that only a few sounds from other languages don’t exist in English. No sound in Arabic really exists in English; all the vowels are different, all the consonants are voiceless (is that the right term?), not to mention the downright weird ones (qaf, ayn, ghayn, DaaD, Taa’, SaaD, DhaaD). Even in Romance Languages, we don’t have those exact vowels, and all the consonants are voiceless again.
But back to my main beef: Douches who know nothing about foreign languages shouldn’t correct those who have worked hard to pronounce foreign words correctly. Some of us know when to ask for “yiro”, “döner kebab” or “shwarma”. One time I saw a Douche lose her cool at Starbucks (I guess she was in her element; I only go for their hot cocoa…I swear!). She asked for a large, the barista said, “You mean a venti?”, to which she replied all annoyed like, “Sorry, I don’t speak Spanish”. Really, the barista was WAY out of bounds assuming she could speak Spanish, the language of espresso machines.
So let us linguists join forces and fight Douches where’er they may be.
Take no prisoners,
Kamilia
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Wed, February 8, 2006 - 4:49 AMI assumed Starbucks's "venti" had something to do with ventilation, until I saw Tully's calling the same size "veinte". Gee, I wonder why Starbucks doesn't call its other sizes "dodici" and "sedici".
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Wed, February 8, 2006 - 9:06 AMMostly de-douched!
I can sleep again! :-D
Weeelll, not quite. I maintain that the ghamma is mildly fricative. At least, my Greek informants don't say yiro with the exact consonant as English year. When I say it's fricative, I don't mean like the 'ch' in North German 'ich' - not strong or long. More like a softened initial 'H' in English 'huge'. ( Unless you pronounce this like yooge) Probably half the country does, but not my half.
"No sound in Arabic really exists in English; all the vowels are different, all the consonants are voiceless (is that the right term?), not to mention the downright weird ones (qaf, ayn, ghayn, DaaD, Taa’, SaaD, DhaaD). Even in Romance Languages, we don’t have those exact vowels, and all the consonants are voiceless again. . ."
Okay, I'll agree to disagree here. If you say all the vowels are different, I guess, considering Americans diphthongize their vowels that is mostly true, but not all consonants are voiceless. The bâ',mîm,wâw, yâ' are voiced. The tâ and thâ certainly "exitht" in English. The main difference in pronunciation comes from the vowels, and, yes, I'll grant the "weird ones", the ones hardest for 'murkins to pronounce don't exist in English.
About the Bush, thing -- I wasn't being sarcastic. Maybe it was to paint him as minority-friendly. I've never heard him speak Spanish, but I remember it was a big selling point during the 2000 "election" when he addressed Cubans in South Florida and Texas Latino groups.
I haven't been in a Starbucks for a long time. A "venti"? What is that supposed to mean? 20 centiliters of something? Don't they have the list of sizes on the wall along with the number of ounces?
I thought the language of espresso machines would be Italian.
Hm. Okay, NOW I get. This discussion reminded me of a fellow many years ago, who, on the subject of fish and my reference to sharks, snootily stated something like, "Well, actually sharks are not fish. Fish have skeletons and sharks have cartilage." I rolled my eyes, thinking, "Oh, come on!"
As was talked about on another thread, there are bony fishes and cartilagenous fishes, but they're still fishes.
Okay, I'm done.
Craig in Arcata -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Wed, February 8, 2006 - 9:32 AMI guess that as far as vowels being different, you're both right. The vocal tract supports an infinite number of vowels (since there is no articulation and it's a three dimensional space). Each is differentiated acoustically from its neighbors by a miniscule amount, largely imperceptible to humans. So phoneticists devised a finite system of symbols representing the vowels of all (most) languages, since the miniscule differences are usually not distinctive. My vowels may be as different from other English speakers as they are from those of another language! I guess it's just a matter of lumping versus splitting. -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Wed, February 8, 2006 - 11:18 AMJeau:
Succinctly said. Thanks very much. I often compare vowels to a door being open and consonants to when the door is closed. You know when it's closed, but how far it is open is variable.
Craig in Arcata
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Sat, February 11, 2006 - 12:18 PMarrgh--must get that linguistics textbook out again. I think I just gained honorary Douche status for that one.
I think I meant aspirated instead of voiced. English consonants require that extra puff of air on the end, whereas in the languages in question, they do not (except those lovely H's in Arabic). -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Sat, February 11, 2006 - 12:23 PMAha!
Ahhha! (very fricative h) :-D
Craig in Arcata
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Tue, February 21, 2006 - 1:09 AM>> I thought the language of espresso machines would be Italian. <<
It is. "Venti" is Italian for "twenty". It's not Spanish. That's "veinte".
Wendy
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Tue, February 21, 2006 - 11:16 AMarrrrrrrrrrgh it was a joke. Anyone with a brain knows venti is italiano. Good grief.
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Tue, February 21, 2006 - 1:16 AM>> But back to my main beef: Douches who know nothing about foreign languages shouldn’t correct those who have worked hard to pronounce foreign words correctly. <<
Amen.
One of my primary beefs is people who pronounce things in ways that don't even make sense in *English*, never mind the language in question. There's a street in a town near me called "Yulupa", for example. Pretty straightforward, don't you think, regardless of it's origin? But believe it or not, people actually pronounce it as "why-lu-pa". Say, what??
Wendy -
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Tue, February 21, 2006 - 6:29 AM"There's a street in a town near me called "Yulupa", for example. Pretty straightforward, don't you think, regardless of it's origin? But believe it or not, people actually pronounce it as "why-lu-pa". Say, what??"
Along down the road there's a town called San Rafael which is pronounced by natives 'round these parts as /sAnr@fEl/. The first time I heard somebody not from the area say /sAnrafaEl/, I wondered why they got it wrong. Then, over in the next county, folks talk about St Helena /sejnt@lin@/ and not /sejnt#hElin@/, as I heard a Bay Area news anchorwoman mispronounce it. But really, local pronunciations of local places should be up to the locals themselves. Most languages reform and reinterpret foreign loanwords.
As for Yulupa, I've heard it is supposed to be of Wappo origin, but was possibly a loanword from Spanish into that language. But then I heard it from my linguistics advisor, who was a Wappologist, and tended to see Wappo origins for many placenames outside of Wappo territory, e.g., Sonoma, which street crosses Yulupa at some point.
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Tue, April 25, 2006 - 4:06 AMLiving in Vancouver BC I often hear US TV and radio - the one that makes me crazy is the town name spelled 'Puyallup' but pronounced "pyoo-AH-lup,' metathesizing the 'u' and the 'y'. ... And I remember a geography teacher in my school in Quebec that could roll off place names like Tuktoyaktuk and Temiscamingue without a hitch but couldn't pronounce Ucluelet (yoo-KLOO-let) at gunpoint...
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Tue, February 21, 2006 - 1:13 AM>> Why not hold people accountable for mispronunciations, especially public speakers? I hate mispronouncing things and much prefer to be corrected, particularly with people's names! ...
I'm not expecting everyone to suddenly pronounce things accent free. How many 'murkins know which tones are in "Beijing"? (3rd and 1st if you were wondering.) I just think it's impolite not to care and not to try. <<
I quite agree, Craig.
And that goes for whether we're at home or abroad on their territory.
Wendy
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Tue, April 25, 2006 - 3:06 PMWe all know that and the way Americans pronounce Spanish words in this part of the globe. Pretty amazing when you go to residencial and wealthy areas most of the streets have Spanish names. Now, ask them to say Santa-Monica and ask the same question to a britton and you will see the difference. You ask them why can't you pronounce like brittons do, then they refuse. Of course, my sample is very limited to friends but had shocked me the way they pronounce words that are quite pronounceable like in the original, i.e. los feliz.
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Tue, February 21, 2006 - 9:55 AM>I find it very curious that Britons have such an entrenched difficulty with Spanish pronunciation
I also find this very strange.
It's difficult for me to imagine that any natural language could be much more phonetically transparent than Spanish.
Are the Britons trying to apply French phonetics?
I hear Americans using Spanish phonetics with French words occasionally.
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Re: Popular Linguistics
Sat, February 11, 2006 - 12:22 PMHi, Learner:
Welcome to the thread!
Craig in Arcata
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Unsu...
Re: Popular Linguistics
Sun, July 1, 2007 - 10:19 AMAs you have some problem with Mandarin....
Hope this would help, www.foreignercn.com. Maybe you could find some useful info there, especially about the language ~