a question

topic posted Fri, May 27, 2005 - 11:12 AM by  Unsubscribed
Share/Save/Bookmark
Advertisement
Hello all. I was wondering if anyone could give me a good answer.
I don't have the IPA font on this computer, so bear with me. Several of my friends say "scantless" when they mean "scandalous". I was trying to come up with a natural phonetic explanation for this. As far as I know, it's not natural to devoice a voiced alveolar plosive (d) between between an alveolar nasal (n) and a vowel. Is (t) just easier to say than (d)? My friends also eliminate the vowel between the alveolar nasal (n) and the alveolar lateral approximant (l), "scandalous" to "scantless" (again, sorry about I'm not using IPA). I can't really come up with a theory that would make these sound changes natural. Maybe it's just their white trash dialect. I don't know. Please respond only if you understand theoretical linguistics. Thanks a lot to all you cunning linguists out there
posted by:
Unsubscribed
Advertisement
Advertisement
  • .
    .
    offline 3

    Re: a question

    Fri, May 27, 2005 - 12:43 PM
    Is that anything like a "glottal stop" or "voiceless glottal plosive"?

    It is a common feature of Danish, and I wonder it was carried over into England while they had a Danish king (Canute/Cnut or "Knud den Store")... just guessing, there.

    On the other hand, I guess (an amateur, inexpert guess) that any changes occur partly because people copy what they hear (probably from sources or people they most often hear or identify with). People also tend to avoid things that are ambiguous or unfamiliar. So maybe people just started pronouncing things that way in the particular area in question... for whatever reason... and it became a trend. In other words, perhaps it has nothing whatsover to do with Danish, apart from a coincidendal similarity.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: a question

      Fri, May 27, 2005 - 1:09 PM
      The glottle plosive, or stop, in English is the h sound in "uh-oh" The IPA symbol for that is a [?] with a line where the dot goes. There is no voiced glottal stop, not on the IPA chart anyway. That doesn't deal with my question though. I don't think that it's anything to do with a historical language change in English, as it's not a common sound change among native speakers (if it even is one). I can't think of another sound change that comes directly from Danish. So, you think that it's just the dialect, huh? I think that that is the case, but these same people that say "scantless" instead of "scandalous" do not say "scantl" instead of "scandal". Maybe it's just a word they made up. I'm not looking for a proven fact, just some phonological theory that I could confuse them with. These are the things that keep me up at night. Anyone else have a theory?
      • Re: a question

        Fri, May 27, 2005 - 1:27 PM
        These are the things that keep me up at night.
        ---
        While they don't tend to "keep me up", i quite dig on them. I know I shall be running aroudn with a note card, the word Scandalous written on it, and saying "read that". Then, "use it in a sentance".

        "could'a" (could have) frequently written as "could of" is one of those times that really makes me want to sit and listen to see when and were in our spoken to written vocab, we make such shifts. :-)

        enjoy looking for your theory. :-)
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: a question

          Fri, May 27, 2005 - 1:40 PM
          After studying French, I gave up on relating written vs. spoken English. The French really screwed with our orthography, although I'm not too familiar with pre-1066 written English (Hey, I'm not France bashing here, Je l'aime le francais). I know that it was close to German and Dutch, whose spelling systems tend to make a little more sense to me. Spoken vs. written French is still mind-boggling to me. I'll work on some "scantless" theory, though I don't think that it will be anything that I can publish.
        • .
          .
          offline 3

          Re: a question

          Fri, May 27, 2005 - 5:38 PM
          There is something special about being a real linguist! I know that it's all about natual changes, and that language changes all the time, but I can't help be irritated when I think something is wrong. There is a graey line... band... that divides "wrong" (e.g. most use one spelling or grammatical structure, while one or two use another form, not realising the difference)... and "new", isn't there? I really want to get used to "then" (e.g. "this is better then that") but it really is not easy. It is just so common, that it must surely be considered standard American. I do understand why the change occurred: it is because "then" and "than" are pronounced in just the same way. I also wonder why "definately" so common. Again, that must surely soon be considered the "correct" spelling. I am interested in language change, but perhaps it is difficult to be so neutral when it is so current. People in linguistics are somehow completely unaffected by such considerations. It seems to me that in the field of linguistics, there is simply no room for a concept of "incorrect" spelling or grammar: "incorrect" is exclusively subjective, and so does not belong within the realm of linguistics.
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: a question

            Fri, May 27, 2005 - 5:46 PM
            correct and incorrect and almost all value judgements are in the realm of philosophy, not science. One does not say that cancer cells divide incorrectly, one simply notes the observations. Same with a linguistical approach to language, no right or wrong, just different observations and theories to explain them. However, i think spelling and linguistics are only mildly related
          • Re: a question

            Fri, May 27, 2005 - 6:14 PM
            There is nothing natural about spelling at all. It's a convention, and in the case of English a rather shoddy one. The problem with many "grammatical mistakes" (in the prescriptivist sense of the phrase, is that they are not mistakes. Oh, well.
            • .
              .
              offline 3

              Re: a question

              Sat, May 28, 2005 - 2:45 AM
              Grammar is just the attempt to codify what already exists in a language and use it as a rule of thumb for creating new text for particular auduiences. Would it be correct to define grammar this way?

              There are ways of putting things that reduce ambiguity or make meaning clearer. I'm trying to say that I understand that "grammar" is derived from the language, and so "grammatical mistakes" do not exist in that sense. Perhaps you can say mistakes don't exist because we all make it up as we go along.

              I don't know about linguistics, so I don't understand why it should not include discussion of spelling. I find the evolution of languages over time very, very interesting, so I do understand that these are all natual changes and that current meanings and spellings of words are result of those changes.

              However, should an English teacher correct grammar or spelling? Should "definate" be marked with a red pen? If not, why not?

              When I write something, I try to make the text for the reader (believe it or not), so that it is easier to understand. I also try to use correct spelling. There are obviously differences in "standard" English spelling depending on the version of English you are using, but I try to avoid...mistakes. Obviously, everyone makes mistakes. Maybe I will spell "definite" "correctly", but I'll probably get some other common word wrong.

              How is a mistake defined? An "unintentional error"? How do you define "error", when it comes to spelling? Llinguists might allow the existence of "typing mistake" but not "spelling mistake". "Spelling mistake" can be defined perhaps as "an unintentional disagreement with a standard or conventional spelling". It is all relative.

              Spelling is certainly a convention. It has become more standardised with printing and with improved communication.

              Reading text on the internet inevitably means encountering a fairly wide variaty of backgrounds (people of differnet origins, ages, backgrounds, etc), so it is perfectly understandable that the language is going to have many different forms.

              Howver, after emphasising natural changes, relativism, convention, and all those things, I still can't help being bothered by "definate" (for example). It just seems that a teacher with a background in linguistics would never correct anyone's spelling in an English class (or whatever the native language is).
  • Re: a question

    Fri, May 27, 2005 - 12:47 PM
    My first suspician, Robert, is that you are seening more than just a glising of sounds, but the phonetic shift conjoined with a misunderstanding of what the word actually is.

    the "less" seems indicitaive for me. "scan-d'lus" i can see, but if it's really picking up a stronger "e" of "less", and not the schwa, I would first suspect your friends might have mistaken the spelling of the word. (such faith i have in american knowledge of vocab, huh...sorry, my bad)

    I'm in Colorado (not sure if you want to call that hick dialect or not, ;-) ) and just asked around, and noticed that while no one is really de voicing the "d" -->, most everyone has shifted to a softer palatized D, and has elised (sp) the 2nd syllable entirely into the 3rd. "scan-dlus".

    Maybe that will give you some hints.






    • Unsu...
       

      Re: a question

      Fri, May 27, 2005 - 1:12 PM
      Thanks, Kip. I think you're right, that my friends are just making it up, that's their white trash dialect.
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: a question

    Fri, May 27, 2005 - 6:23 PM
    I really want some theories about my original "scantless" question, maybe we can discuss morality and spelling in another thread
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: a question

      Sun, May 29, 2005 - 6:56 AM
      i know very little about phonetics, bit i would think that voicelessness is more effortless than voicedness in plosives. what i'm pretty sure of is that in language inventories, voiced plosives imply voiceless plosives. you get languages with the series p, t, k and not b, d, g, but you rarely, if ever, find languages with b, d, g and not p, t, k. whether the source is phonetic or phonological, any d --> t shift needs to be investigated as a retreat to the more effortless or unmarked.

      i don't know whether the reinterpretation as N+less is relevant to the process. what i think is more relevant is the resyllabification that takes place if you drop the vowel between d and l. this forces the d to be part of a coda, which i think makes it more subject to markedness constraints such as "plosives should be voiceless".

      scan.du.lus
      scant.lus

      what i sense is happening is that the voicing status of the onset of the syllable is conditioning the coda. i have no problem with "landless" or "randless" or the nonsense word "mandlis". but it's harder to get a [d] in nonsense words like "condlis", "schendlet", etc, and i find myself naturally replacing d with t.
      • Re: a question

        Sun, May 29, 2005 - 8:21 AM
        but it's harder to get a [d] in nonsense words like "condlis", "schendlet", etc, and i find myself naturally replacing d with t.
        ---
        or, dropping it entirely. In your nonsense words, i find myself doing con'lis, and schen'let. Closing off the N, but not fully expressing d or t.
  • Re: a question

    Sat, May 28, 2005 - 3:32 AM
    The social status of the dialect doesn't matter.

    T and D are just as easy to say as one another. Is it possible that the phonemes for t and d produce a phonetically identical sound in some environments, which you are identifying as t? For example, in "atom" and "Adam" they are pronounced identically for many US English speakers - as a flap rather than the citation form of t or d.

    The good thing for testing this one is that "-less" is a productive morpheme. In other words, you can just stick it at the end of any noun to mean "without that noun." If you can see how these people pronounce similar words, you can figure out whether this is a specific treatment of one word or part of an overall phonological pattern:

    wonderous
    ponderous
    handle-less
    candle-less
    standless
    mantel-less
    pantless
    antelope
    landlocked

    etc.

    Hope that helps.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: a question

      Sat, May 28, 2005 - 7:19 AM
      thanks hen. I think the insight into the -less morpheme provides me a workable theory. I think that my friends are indeed saying that a "scantless" person is without "scant" and that scant is a word meaning tact, class, or morality in their lexicon. Therefore, it is not a sound change, but the addition of a highly productive morpheme "-less" to a word in their regional or social dialect. That'll work for me. thanks again
  • Re: a question

    Mon, May 30, 2005 - 9:07 PM
    I think you're barking up the wrong tree trying a find a "natural" rationale for the phonological variation of a dialect. Is it more "natural" to pronounce "ask" as /aeks/ versus /aesk/? The phonetic realization of a dialect's rules of phonology is part of what makes a dialect distinct.

    For example, most dialects of German have final stop devoicing: the word for 'day' - "Tag" - would be realized as /tak/; other dialects have an intermediate step of fricativization [?] for velars - so the final realization is /tax/ (with this 'x' representing a voiceless velar fricative that would follow from the voiced velar fricative, right?). Neither phonetic relaization is more "natural" - the most simple phonological systems don't win out over the most complex. It's all a numbers game - and there only have to be enough speakers to have a distinct identity in order to maintain a distinct dialect.

Recent topics in "Linguistics"

Topic Author Replies Last Post
What is Skinner actually saying? Orangeboxman 0 October 29, 2009
OT: New Tribe Unsubscribed 0 April 19, 2009
anlaysing conversation esta 4 April 19, 2009
"Hamas", in Spanish ("never, never again"); in Zionazzi ("ham-... Michael 15 January 4, 2009