R.S.V.P

topic posted Fri, July 22, 2005 - 12:58 AM by  David
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Respondez Sil Vous Plait
Please respond.

How did we get that guy?
posted by:
David
SF Bay Area
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  • Re: R.S.V.P

    Fri, July 22, 2005 - 7:59 AM
    I'd say, French was consisdered the language of cluture for many years in England. Royality and anyone who wanted to claim some sort of "upper class" status *simply must speak french, darling". ;-)

    So, you peppered your world with all things french (or french sounding) including "cherie" and "RSVP".


    Another one I'm curious about is "mayday" which supposedly comes from french but I can't quite figure out how. M'aidez or M'aider - but neither of those would be something a french person would scream when his plane is going down.

    and guesses?
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: R.S.V.P

      Sun, July 24, 2005 - 4:32 PM
      M'aider = Help Me!!!

      Seems perfectly natural for a Frenchman to scream as his plane is going down...what's the confusion?

      But the whole English-French thing, you think it would have fallen out of fashion by now to speak the language of your former conquers--the Normans-- whom left how many hundreds of years ago? (It was in fashion because after they occupied England they became the upper class, and the upper class maner of speaking is usually what is in fashion. ).
      • Re: R.S.V.P

        Tue, July 26, 2005 - 2:54 PM
        French was popular all over in the 19th century, even as far as Russian and Turkish which have lots of French loanwords from that period.

        The Normans did have a huge influence on English, but loans from that period sound native, no longer foreign.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: R.S.V.P

          Thu, July 28, 2005 - 6:05 AM
          I always understood that French was also the language of government (my history is bad, so forgive me if I can't specify when). If you wanted power and prestige, it paid to know French. Lots of government political documents were written in Frencch at one point.

          I'm glad that I slogged through three years of French (by the skin of my teeth) in high school because when I went to China I found that many government documents there are still in Chinese and French. They've only recently begun to translate everything into English.

          In addition (and slightly off-topic), it gave me a leg up on private conversations between my grandparents and their friends. Instead of insisting that we children leave the room, they simply switched from English to French when they wanted to say things they didn't want us to hear. The annoyingly REAL reason I took French instead of Spanish or Latin.
        • Re: R.S.V.P

          Sat, July 30, 2005 - 4:03 PM
          Right -- it was during the Napoleonic invasion of Russia that French began to fall out of favor among the educated elite. In fact, the court had so favored French that much of the Russian aristocracy at that time could speak *only* French, and could barely put together a sentence in their supposedly native Russian.
          • Re: R.S.V.P

            Fri, October 7, 2005 - 12:40 PM
            French derived much of it's importance for not only being language of nobility, but consequently the language of law-makers. Today, a very many English legal terms are derivations or direct uses of French, and with law being a prestige occupation, it follows French should retain a certain level of that.

            Hell, legal language is hard enough to understand in ENGLISH.
      • Re: R.S.V.P

        Wed, July 27, 2005 - 3:36 PM
        Aidez-moi. remember, in imperative form, the subject is dropped, and the pronoun takes full form following the verb.

        this is why i've always been confused.

        the only place you could see m'aider is somethign like... je veux que vous m'aidez. or pouvaiez-vous m'aider?

        hum....
        • Re: R.S.V.P

          Wed, July 27, 2005 - 4:39 PM
          From what I understand, the full form was originally 'venez m'aider' or "come help me." This was shortened to m'aider and then mayday. Thus the infinitive.

          • Re: R.S.V.P

            Thu, October 6, 2005 - 12:52 PM
            re MAYDAY - roam the net and there are variations of the same explanation for how Mayday came about. There is an interesting melange of likelihoods here too - hey, how many angels CAN stand on the head of a pin anyway?
            It is another case of the old inseparable hand-clasp of fact and opinion.
            The explanation of how Mayday came about is always offered in apparent unawareness of, and certainly in isolation from, the identity of the originator of the idea - and there was one. I may have accepted one of the bland generic explanations at face value myself were in not for the fact I once came across the gravestone of the actual originator of the Mayday distress call in a Sussex churchyard (this was c.1970 - and the stone was not recent then). The story of the Mayday call was recorded there. To my unending regret, at the time the fact was only of passing interest, the name is now lost to me.
            We could probably have guessed that if there had been an originator, he/she was NOT American, or the hero's name would be on every schoolboy's lips along with the Wright brothers and Kojak. No, he was one of those damnably self-effacing, unassuming, Limeys.
            Tony
            • Re: Mayday

              Fri, October 7, 2005 - 11:32 AM
              OK, more enlightening data has just come to light:

              The 'Mayday' distress signal: 'was devised by the late Frederick Stanley Mockford, born in 1897 in the East Sussex village of Selmeston. While he was senior radio officer at Croydon airport in 1923, he was asked to think up a word that would indicate distress and would easily be understood by all pilots and ground staff in an emergency. As much of the traffic at the time was between Croydon and Le Bourget (Paris) he proposed the word 'Mayday' from the French m'aidez'.'
              There you have it - another useful trivia question.
              • Re: Mayday

                Fri, October 7, 2005 - 11:46 AM
                right, except we are back to a problem that i asked in the first place... which is that there is no such thing (or no likely thing) as "m'aidez".

                :-)

                i think it will endlessly remain a mystery. ;-)
                • Re: Mayday

                  Sat, October 22, 2005 - 7:34 PM
                  It is not m'aidez, it is MAYDAY! That is the problem. Mockford could have chosen the correct and perfect French rendition of the phrase - he didn't. If he had we wouldn't be having this discussion. Instead he simply made use of it in his own, more universal, more functional phrase. The originator was not ill acquainted with French, he simply borrowed the most significant and functional element. The word MAYDAY is a convenient and universally understood distress call. It does not translate because it is the same in every language. That was the intent. The originator succeeded admirably in my view. No one is likely to forget it or mistake it once heard. It was not intended or claimed to be an English translation of any specific French phrase, simply a brief, easily recalled, widely understood construct. No one having need to use the Mayday call needs to know any French and I suggest they will prefer to use the Mayday call even if they were capapble of uttering a distress call in flawless French, and are fully aware they are not doing so. If anyone in distress wishes to broadcast their call for help in Parisian French (or Turkish or Hindustani) they are free to do so, but I suggest it is unlikely to elicit quite the same quality of response.
                  Likewise, English-speaking sentries have found it more functional to use the brief but gramatically imprecise 'Halt who goes there', rather than a longwinded colloquial interrogation - 'Stop immediately where you are and make no sudden moves or you are liable to be shot, disclose your regiment and identity and move slowly forward to support your claim with official identification. I also required to know what you are doing here and on whose authority .... etc'.
                  When the need to deliver a distress call arises it does not often bring also the imperative of absolute perfection of language. What it requires is the most abbreviated, most memorable and most widely understood call. We have Mr Mockford to thank for that.
                  This horse is now dead.
  • Anglo-Norman

    Mon, August 8, 2005 - 3:08 AM
    www.languagehat.com/archives/001481.php

    For some three centuries after the Conquest all the literate classes used French, both spoken and written, very often alongside their native English: a Romance language overlaid the original Germanic one. Written French was especially important in medieval England as being a principal language of record - alongside British Latin - so that the sheer volume of surviving documentary evidence in Anglo-French for this period is overwhelmingly greater than that left behind in English, especially up to the late fourteenth century. No less important than the quantity of Anglo-French is the the breadth of its use. Although scholarly attention has focused largely on its literary productions from the twelfth and early thirteenth centuries, the later non-literary works are arguably of geater importance for the development of English culture as a whole. The law, from Parliament down to the lower courts, the administration of government at national and local level, the commercial and financial framework of the country, all worked through French rather than English. What is more, French was used extensively for all the arts and sciences long before English. This penetration of French into the whole fabric of civilization in medieval England means that the study of English etymology cannot safely confine itself to tracing words back to a cut-off point in Middle English, or even to making a leap across the Channel in search of a 'borrowing' from medieval French in order to reach the origin of English terms. The Middle English Dictionary reveals on virtually every page the massive and very obvious debt owed by English to French: less obviously, however, it also reveals that this debt was not built up by 'borrowing' in the conventional sense and that in literally thousands of cases forms and meanings were adopted (not 'borrowed') into English from insular, as opposed to continental French. The relationship of Anglo-French with Middle English was one of merger, not of borrowing, as a direct result of the bilingualism of the literate classes in medieval England.
  • Re: R.S.V.P

    Sat, August 13, 2005 - 12:44 AM
    The proper spelling is, "Repondez, S'il Vous Plait." With accent marks that I don't know how to make.

    In the Romance languages as well as in English, "Please" is a sort of shorthand for, "If it pleases you."

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