This question was sparked when i was reading about "genders" on another thread.
English has two plurals. "one" and "more than one". (book, books; toy, toys)
Russian has "one" "two or three" and "many". (god, goda, godi; karanadsh, karanadhsa, karanadeshii)
I was wondering if anyone else has knows other plurals that distingusih between different levels of plurality.
Then, does anyone know of explinations or theories they could direct me to? thanks.
English has two plurals. "one" and "more than one". (book, books; toy, toys)
Russian has "one" "two or three" and "many". (god, goda, godi; karanadsh, karanadhsa, karanadeshii)
I was wondering if anyone else has knows other plurals that distingusih between different levels of plurality.
Then, does anyone know of explinations or theories they could direct me to? thanks.
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Thu, May 12, 2005 - 11:33 AMSingular / dual / plural is common. -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Sun, May 15, 2005 - 12:42 PMsingular/dual/plural is indeed common, english even has a few random leftover examples floating around
penny/pence/pennies
corpus/corpora/corpuses
although these are merely accidental and can be accorded to difference in country of origin.
english does not have dual trial or paucal plurals because its noun classes are anchored soundly in natural gender and rely heavily on the direct association of pronoun to noun. the word 'woman' is entirely female , but 'table' would never be described as 'she'. Languages like german and russian differentiate between gender and animation among singular nouns, but lack such specificity in the plural. varied plural forms are necessitated by this gender shift between number categories. as adjectives and verbs are inflected to match number and speaker the noun must also have the same forms of declension so they can be related accordingly. also, english doesnt have free word order, so the chances of words being next to ones that dont immediately correlate is slim thereby eliminating the need for multiple types of plurals. -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Thu, June 9, 2005 - 3:47 PMHm. It didn't occur to me that pence was a dual form, but of course, it is. Another English remnant of dual vs. plural is "both" vs. "all". I seem to recall that singular/dual/plural was a regular feature of either Old Norse or Old Saxon.
I suppose related issues would include mass nouns like flock (or any of the dozen names for gatherings of different birds - a kettle of vultures and a murder of crows.) Do three wolves constitute a pack? (No, but twenty Camels do . . . sorry, I don't smoke) :)
As far as pronouns go, I can't remember which language families have exclusive and inclusive pronouns - "we" minus "one other", you-two vs. you-three, etc. -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Thu, June 9, 2005 - 3:55 PMI had forgotten that. Lakota pronouns are "i, we-two or three, and we the rest of us", and also "you, you two or three, and you all"
I can't remember if it's you two, or you few... we two or we few.
theres one, did we mention "one, couple/both, FEW, many?"
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Thu, June 9, 2005 - 7:30 PMI don't think that pence is a dual, because there used to be a threepence coin in England. Pence and pennies and corpora and corpuses are merely different forms of the plural of corpus in English (one Latinate and the other more common English). -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Fri, June 10, 2005 - 8:39 AMRight! Tuppance and Thruppance! I suspect, then, the form could be of the "few" category. I should dig out my old Old Saxon references. This is getting to me. -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Fri, June 10, 2005 - 8:49 AM"this is getting to me".
Ok, does anyone else think we "all" are wierd? I have been caught more times than not, doing some freaky thing with my mouth to try to figure out the placement of a tongue on the palate saying "th, th'a, th'e, th'i, th'ee" trying to figure some phonetic puzzle out. Or people will catch me saying "hum... 'it's Yeh big', 'it's yeh little', it's yeh blue' when trying to figure out how a certian word is used.
and i'm totally involved with my stange games... while the rest of teh world, i'm sure, is wondering if a white jacket sans sleves is approperiate for me. ;-)
anyhow, i'm eager to hear what you come up with for "pence".
not speaking "english", can i ask if "tup" (tuppance') is a functional word in isolation? or is this the only place we see it. -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Fri, June 10, 2005 - 9:14 AMThe morphemes tu /t@/ and thru /thr@/ in those words is just a different spelling that reflects a different pronunciation of two and three. Like bosun for boatswain. As for pence, there is also Peter's pence. Old English had a few dual forms only in its pronominal system. For example, in the nominative ic 'I', thu 'thou', wit 'we two', git 'ye two', we 'we', ge 'ye'. As for 'yea big', I've assumed that it is related to yea 'yes' used as an adverb meaning really, truly, very. Could also be some kind of deictic word meaning something like 'this big'.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual...cal_number -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Fri, June 10, 2005 - 12:21 PMCould also be some kind of deictic word meaning something like 'this big'.
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Oh, i was just using it as an example of the times i've been caught in an attempt to limit a definition. if you know "ye" is used, where, when and why. so you stick it into all kinds of situations, and see how it sounds. You simply would not say "it's ye blue", for example. You almost always use it as size, and generally it's always accompanied with hand jestures indicating the size you are implying.
like you say, it's closest (in my play, anyhow) to "it's THIS big" - as a true place holder for a visual demonstrative.
mostly my point was that i think i freak people out, playing with phenomes, (someone here said that the phenomes from Kill and cot are distinct phenomes in arabic, so i spent that particular night on the bus, making noises. ;-) i'm sure they were thinking "damn drunk woman". lol
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Fri, June 10, 2005 - 1:38 PMI confess I've been in the muttering position. In my old group of friends, someone would invariably just say "Will you stop?" if I went on for more than a little while. I recall searching for words that demonstrate that adding "s" as a kind of superlative, or extreme form prefix morpheme. "Mash" and "Smash", "Nip" and "Snip", "nap" (as in flint-napping ((is it knap??)) and "snap".
So you can imagine someone walking around saying these words and combinations thereof and the looks thereto. Bantu clicks are fun that way as well. -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Fri, June 10, 2005 - 4:35 PMI think you just don't have the right friends.
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Sat, November 5, 2005 - 11:01 AMHi, Craig.
I'm a new member, and my comments are not about plurals; They're about strange pronunciations - phonetic - but strange in English. In Danish one pronounces the k in kn words (knife, knot, knap [as in knapsack), etc). Try it out! I learned this as a child, so may have done something special to my pronouncing equipment. Obviously, the above words are English, the Danish ones of the above three are kniv, knude, scarcely. . . . Fun, eh? Paula
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Fri, June 10, 2005 - 1:52 PMOh, NOW I get it!
Funny how I can only associate that with a measuring between index finger and thumb and saying "yay(my spelling)-thick".
Hm. Maybe a flat palm in the air as "yay-high" is intelligible to me.
I was wrong. It IS in my dialect.
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Fri, June 10, 2005 - 10:08 AMYes, "we" are weird. (I am, of course, using the we exclusive of me pronoun.)
Yeh big? Yeh little? Not in my dialect. Where from you speak?
Craig
Rocky Mountain
North American English speaker
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Fri, August 26, 2005 - 5:20 PM"Pence" is the plural for the unit of money, the "penny". "Pennies" is the plural for the coin, the "penny". In the United States, and I believe Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, the unit of money is not the "penny", but the "cent", which has the perfectly ordinarly plural "cents".
Under the old Lsd system, one would rarely hear anything higher than "elevenpence", as twelvepence was a shilling, and anything more would be counted in shillings and pence. But the word "sixteenpence" seems perfectly reasonable to me as a way of describing the price of something.
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Sun, December 4, 2005 - 3:35 PMSome indigenous languages make a distinction between "collective" and "distributive" plural - "they [distr.] are working" would mean "they are (each) working (individually)" and "they [coll.] are working" would mean "they are (all) working (together)."
The Polynesian languages distinguish singular/dual/plural and also encode "inclusive vs. exclusive" in their pronouns for "we," depending on if the addressee ("you") is or is not included. Hawai'ian has [accented letters indicate vowel length, should be a macron but that's not e-mail friendly] "káua" "we dual inclusive," i.e. "you (singular) and I," "máua" "we dual exclusive," i.e. "he/she and I but not you," "kákou" "we plural inclusive," i.e. "you and I and possibly he/she/they, three or more persons in total," and "mákou" "we plural exclusive," i.e. "I/we and possibly he/she/they but not you, three or more persons in total."
For whatever that's worth. :-)
G.
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Sun, May 15, 2005 - 6:49 PMrussian has a dual plural, but other slavic languages like slovak have trial (for quantities of three) paucal (for quantities that are many yet undefined) and nullar (quantities of zero, an archaic form used mostly for comparison) -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Fri, June 10, 2005 - 10:43 AMIrish Gaelic has a dual plural, but only when counting people. The word 'beirt', meaning 'two people', has no connection in modern irish to either the word 'duine' (person) or 'dha' (two). Two houses, however, is just 'dha tithe'. -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Sun, December 4, 2005 - 3:38 PMRe: Irish plural -
In Scottish Gaelic we have the remnants of a dual number after "dhà" "two" but it's only distinct for some feminine nouns.
We also have "personal numerals" that take a genitive plural, from one to ten, like "dithis dhaoine" ("dithis" is our equivalent of "beirt") "a two-people of people," "triùir dhaoine" "a three-people of people," etc.
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Fri, June 10, 2005 - 11:52 AMThe dual is a feature going all the way back to Proto Indo-European. Sanskrit had it. (Sanskrit also has seven cases, and three genders. It's either really fun or really difficult, I can't decide...) -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Fri, June 10, 2005 - 1:32 PMCan't it be both fun and difficult? Pardon the duality :D
Seven cases and three genders: includes Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian, Czech, Slovak as well. I just love how new languages are formed by political unrest! Does Sanskrit have a vocative? In Serbian and archaic Bulgarian, the female name "Jana" occurs in many songs as "Jano" because the singer is calling her. It often misleads folks into thinking the subject is a male.
Hm. Well, THAT went completely off-topic! -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Fri, June 10, 2005 - 4:39 PMOh, yes, and check this out, the vocative is actually the ghostly 8th case, but it doesn't traditionally get included in the list--I think because it's just the uninflected stem. (Disclaimer: I only took one semester--I'm no expert!) So: Sanskrit has seven cases and, oh yeah, the vocative.
The feminine vocative -o is about the only thing I know about Czech--my high school boyfriend spoke Czech at home, and called his mother Mamo.
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Fri, June 10, 2005 - 1:33 PMand on a side note, in slovenian and slovakian the dual plural is used only for things that happen to be multiple, and not for things that come in pairs. for that the plural is used. -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Fri, June 10, 2005 - 1:43 PM"things that happen to be multiple,"
I don't get it. So gloves are plural, but two chickens are dual? Is that what you mean? The Dual in the Sun changes to the Plural in the Sun!
I forgot about Slovenian. Old MacDonald in Ljublijana: ije, ije oh. (Sorry, lame pun.) -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Sat, June 11, 2005 - 8:25 PMha, i love it! yes, thats it exactly- a pair of gloves is plural but chickens,hairties and other objects that are not specifically a pair, are dual. it makes sense, as presumably one would already know that gloves are two and the morphological marker granted by the dual ending would be a little excessive. however, twins take dual. curiouser and curiouser. -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Sat, June 11, 2005 - 8:38 PMalso, russian has a dual plural but it represents trial quantities as well as the mythical quadral variety.
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Sun, June 12, 2005 - 6:59 AMhebrew makes use of the notion of "things that come in pairs" too. the regular plural suffix (-im or -ot, depending on gender) is used for cases involving two or more of an object that doesn't normally come in pairs. thus, two mirrors = "shtey mar'-ot"; two houses = "shney bat-im". six mirrors = "shesh mar'-ot"; etc.
the dual suffix "-ayim" is used for two or more of something that usually comes in pairs. thus, two eyes = "shtey eyn-ayim"; a hundred eyes = "me'a eyn-ayim".
so what it is is not actually dual vs. plural marking, but two different forms of the plural, depending on whether or not the object being pluralized normally occurs in pairs or not.
then there are the exceptions, like the fact that the plural of "teeth" id marked with the "dual" form. no idea what's going on there. -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Sun, June 12, 2005 - 9:12 AM"then there are the exceptions, like the fact that the plural of "teeth" id marked with the "dual" form. no idea what's going on there."
Maybe teeth are paired: one on top and one underneath. -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Sun, June 12, 2005 - 10:07 AMinteresting thought. but then fingers are paired, too, but we use the regular plural for them, not the dual.
but now that i think about it, we use the dual, not plural, for "fingernails". maybe "fingers" rather than "teeth" are the exception. -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Sun, June 12, 2005 - 10:19 AMQ: are there languages that distinguish dual from plural other than in nominal number marking and adverbs like both?
e.g. are there languages with noun-verb or noun-adjective agreement that distinguishes plural from dual?
are there languages with morphemes that indicate verbal plurality that distinguish dual from plural?
i reckon the answer to both these questions is "no". -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Sun, June 12, 2005 - 11:11 AM"Q: are there languages that distinguish dual from plural other than in nominal number marking and adverbs like both? "
Sanskrit was mentioned earlier as having a dual as well as plural morphologically in nominal paradigms. The dual extends to the verbal paradigms as well:
Nouns:
a-stem delcension, masc., devaH 'god'
Sg., N. devas (devaH)
A. devam
I. devena
D. devAya
Abl. devAt
G. devasya
L. deve
V. deva
Du., N. A. V. devau
I. D. Abl. devAbhyAm
G, L. devayos
Pl., N. V. devAs
A. devAn
I. devais
D. Abl. devebhyas
G. devAnAm
L. deveSu
Verbs:
pres. indicative., active root doh 'to milk'
Sg Du Pl
1 dohmi duhvas duhmas
2 dhokSi dugdhas dughda
3 dogdhi dugdhas duhanti
Another interesting thing just occurred to me. Compounds of two proper names take the dual: e.g., rAmasitau 'Rama and Sita'. -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Sun, June 12, 2005 - 1:29 PMi think most languages that possess the dual plural distinguish in both adjective and noun form- russian, polish, croatian, slovak all do.
dve koshki
dwa kota
dva kota
dva kotka
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Sun, June 12, 2005 - 3:16 PMso, dumb question.
In English, a pair of eyes, are two eyes.
100 pairs of eyes, are 200 eyes.
If you say 100 eyes -ayim, is this 100 single eyes in paris (50 paris of eyes), or is it 100 pairs of eyes? -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Sun, June 12, 2005 - 8:04 PMno, that's a good question.
it means 100 eyes, not even necessarily in pairs. i don't even want to think of a scenario that can illustrate this... -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Mon, June 13, 2005 - 5:50 AMha :) this is what I call the 'what-if' army- a favorite line of questioning of my high school students who are fond of asking "what case are six hundred and six teas?" and other such quantitative queries -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Mon, June 13, 2005 - 9:16 AM"... high school students who are fond of asking "what case are six hundred and six teas?" and other such quantitative queries "
Sorry, but I don't get it AGAIN!. So what's the answer? Why is 606 teas significant?
Replying to the 100 eyes etc., Japanese requires counter-particles, depending on geometric shape - similar to genders in Indo-European. (Kip - doesn't Lakota, too?). No matter what you count, you have to have the right particle, and it's better to have the wrong particle than no particle. Regarding English, I found a good demonstration at a BBQ, when I realized I had to refer to "ears of corn" and not "3 corns."
Glad to have the Hebrew and Lakota input. Seems we're quite Indo-European in our examples. Any Niger-Congan or Sino-Tibetan examples out there? Has anyone checked the Linguist List? -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Mon, June 13, 2005 - 10:38 AMNah, Lakota counting is really quite basic.
Here's one, just to toss in some "fun" for your day, all.
Lakota only nativly has 1-7 counters. 8 to, i don't know, 100,000 all came later, after contact with europeans. they are so complex to build, by the way, that most native lakota speakers say "onji, numpa, yami, topa, (6)(7), then use english for "eight", "nine", etc.
so you will hear a native lakota say " topa shunk nine igmu apa". (4 dogs fight nine cats).
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Mon, June 13, 2005 - 10:33 AM"what case are six hundred and six teas?"
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Ok, so this is where Russian ticks me off every day.
Besides that I have to deal with cases, which this english speaker who never learned latin or greek - finds to be "totally greek to me" - you have to remember that One is ALWAYS singluar, even if its' 101, or 21, or 6548571. and 2, 3, (4?) plurality is always genative sing, regardles of the numbers BEFORE teh 2, 3, (4?).
The varity of language structures just boggles my mind... even when i only know 10 or so gramatical structures in languages. (not that i KNOW those languages in any useful sense, just "this is how hopi works, gramatically". ;-)
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Mon, June 13, 2005 - 10:30 AMi don't even want to think of a scenario that can illustrate this...
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Caution: OT bashing (typical of me spending too much time explaining the falacies of literalism. :-)
well, god asked for foreskins... maybe he wanted some other body parts to?
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Mon, June 13, 2005 - 12:53 PMsis hundred six teas is significant to russian students for several reasons- the first being that plurals are annoying, the second being that tea in russian is a strange quantity that cannot be counted so its plural follows no rules. just an example of a variety of questions they ask that usually begin with "what if"..... better? -
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Mon, June 13, 2005 - 1:04 PMOhhhh, you TEACH russian !!!!
hehehe. now i know who to bug for my annoying "how come" questions.
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Re: Plurals in non-english languages
Mon, June 13, 2005 - 1:30 PMAha! Okay, my thinking was WAY off. I was thinking there was some weird collective rule for 606 of something! Chaiiiii.
Reminds me of overhearing a not-quite capable linguistics tutor trying to explain mass nouns as "measurables" instead of "non-countables." The tutee was increasingly frustrated, saying "But you can measure EVERYTHING!" I told him you can say, "Give me 3 bottles, but not "*Give me three milks.(Unless your at a restaurant and there's an implied measurement.)
Someone asked me once how to say 1 hand in Japanese (he was thinking up a name for a team). I told him I could say one and I could say hand, but I couldn't say one hand because I didn't know the counter for hands! My Japanese informant couldn't figure out what I was trying to say, so I had to invent a context of: "Okay, you are in a doll factory and you go over to a pile of hands and pick out. What do you call it? Ippo no te! 1 -hand counter- of - hand.
Like I said before: 3 corns.
Much betteh now, muuuuch betteh now. - Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
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