Mathematical predictions of regular verbs and tense?

topic posted Thu, October 11, 2007 - 8:22 AM by  Craig
Comrades:

What do you make of this?

www.sciencecodex.com/harvard...st_tense


Craig in Arcata
posted by:
Craig
California
  • Being an anglo-linguistic elitist and a champion of endangered words, I find this report deeply distressing. I understand the role played by verbal morphology in any living language, but I fear that the "regularization" of many more traditional verb forms would only serve to grease the already slippery slope into ebonics and sloppy speech.

    Yeah, I sayed that. I goed there. I doed it!
    (For the record, said IS the ed past tense of say, following the ied substitution of y rule, and omitting the e. Saied..? That's even more archaic than the modern form.)
    • I agree that this is somewhat disturbing, though I will hold that it is a fascinating idea to research. The head of my program went to Harvard and is forever showing up in class saying things like "the textbook has told you there are nine noun classes, but I will prove that there is only one". Today he showed up with a computer generated method of predicting irregular verb forms in Russian, and it was fairly accurate, but failed in several key instances, which would seem to me to be a quick way to promote incorrect grammar in everyday ordinary usage.

      Boo i say! humbug!
    • You group, "ebonics" and "sloppy speech," and they are very different linguistic animals. Ebonics is not a language (although the Oakland California School Board declared it one). What you call ebonics is African-American English Vernacular (AAEV).

      "Sloppy speech," is claimed by comparing the uterance, to the standards (regarding sloppy speech) held by the observer/listener.

      American English drives perscriptivists crazy because of its capacity to asorbe and rapidly adopt new words.
    • <snip>Being an anglo-linguistic elitist and a champion of endangered words, I find this report deeply distressing.<snip>

      Well, you might get more support for your position on a tribe like "lexical eletists," one for perscriptivists. Of course, we do seem to have a plethora of non linguists on here, so who knows.

      Complaining that language changes or becomes "sloppy" or judging one dialect to be "better" rather than simply standard is, in my mind, akin to going to the ocean, taking a picture of it, then complaining because next time it's not the same. Or, perhaps a better analogy would be complaining that the flu evolves every year, challenging the immune system.

      If languages aren't supposed to go through changes like these, then why aren't we all speaking old high German, or Proto-Indo-European? Or for that matter, Shakespearean English, which is considered the beginning of the modern version of English?

      That being said, all native speakers of a language are bound to find discomfort in its changes over their lifetime, including linguists. It's only natural, and I experience it myself (on an emotional level, though on an intellectual level, I just find these changes interesting). I remember arguing with my professors about phenomena in English which were on the horizon in the early 90's, because those changes bothered them emotionally.
    • <<Yeah, I sayed that. I goed there. I doed it! >>

      I can see you know very little of AAVE! Who speaks like that, really? I really think if people took the time to examine it, it would change their mind about things. It is good to know about what you're criticizing, n'est pas?

      As a black person, part of me wants to be totally offended, but I will refrain from indulging in that. I grew up speaking Standard English and AAVE and I can tell you that it is in no way sloppy, a butchering of English or anything other than one culture's way of communicating. Would you also destroy Louisiana Creole? I mean, if we're going to go that route, we'll have to get rid of every word we use that's from another country. You can't sit on the patio, veranda or lanai, can you? Where ever will I sun myself?
  • There have been some predictions before. Swadesh's glottochronology. Ringe, and others, are carrying on the work these days with computational models of change and cladistics. You might want to check out RMW Dixon's The rise and fall of languages (1997). He talks there about how rate of change is variable, (borrowing a term "punctuated equilibrium" from evolutionary biology.) In English, the rate of change between Old English and Middle English was faster than at later times in English. For example English has not changed as radically in the past 500 years as between 900 and 1100 CE. It would seem to me that prediction is too optimistic. We might be able to study the linguistic and non-linguistic factors that go into language change and how they affect its rate.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glottochronology
    linguistlist.org/issues/11/11-286.html

    Also, I see the trend as: regular to irregular to regular forms in verbal paradigms. Today's irregular verbs were yesteryear's regular ones. Cf. ablaut in PIE and Germanic: English sing ~ sang ~ sung. There are also anomalies, as in dive, dove ~ dived, of weak verbs being reanalyzed as strong ones. And sometimes relatively uncommon words preserve older forms: work, worked ~ wrought, and ox, oxen.
    • I tend to use a lot of English irregulars that most people don't use, but I'd be OK if we just regularized everything.

      Then again, if we're going to do that with English, we might as well just solve the rest of the problem and all start using Esperanto
      rather than English.

      • Meh!

        and you may quote me.
        • "Then again, if we're going to do that with English, we might as well just solve the rest of the problem and all start using Esperanto
          rather than English."

          Who are 'we'? Sorry, but I have no love for Esperanto, especially when it is hailed as an "international" language. Easy if your native language is Latinic-based with a smattering of Germanic.

          There was an interview a few years back on NPR with some official of some World Esperanto society who admitted that more people on Earth are studying Klingon than Esperanto. I had to laugh at that.

          Q'apla? !

          Craig in Arcata
          • I used to be extremely cynical about Esperanto.

            I have considered, though, that Klingon might be a better alternative if the point is to be equally challenging to everyone, everywhere.

            Chinese and Persians find Esperanto easier than other 'real' European languages, at least.

            Klingon is catching on partly because it's of interest to linguists, who I think mostly don't see the point of Esperanto as 'real' languages are not much a challenge to them.

            But non-linguists, who will have a much easier time with Esperanto, tend not to study either Esperanto or Klingon (yet).

            Specifically, I would not count Esperanto out yet because members of the Bahai'i faith have an interest in it, and they look like
            one of the more 'up-and-coming' religions.
            • Si
              Si
              offline 29
              what i don't understand is why so many people are so eager to study made-up languages (like esperanto or klingon) but mention learning a few of the ones we already have and people throw up their hands and say "oh that's too hard".

              why not study persian or chinese instead of esperanto? why not study portuguese or russian or any of the hundreds of african languages, or welsh for that matter?

              languages we already have carry our cultures and our histories, yet they are dying all around us. because of their fluid, evolutionary nature, our languages remind us of where we've come from (and what we've come through), sociologically, geographically, historically...

              an invented language may be simpler, but it is uni-dimensional; it teaches, celebrates, cradles nothing.
              • Why do people hate Ebonics so much? I often find it kind of odd that anyone who loves language would hate Ebonics - or AAEV - so much since I actually often find there's more creative (and often actually more sophisticated) use of language emerging from Black culture in the US than there is in the mainstream dominant culture.

                AW - Do you feel the same way about Cockney or Jamaican Patois as you do about AAEV?
                • Fifi, to answer you honestly (and to the rest of you: NO i do not want to start a flame war, and REFUSE to participate in one; i will ignore hostile posts)...

                  people object to African-American Vernacular English for possibly all 3, any 2, or any 1 of the following reasons: 1. because they're racist. 2. because they're classist (classist non-racists will also object to the speech of the white rural working class). 3. because they're ignorant.

                  especially where it comes from people with a linguistics background (who, after all, should know better) i find hostility to African American dialect (that's right, damn it, it's a dialect, it's not "bad" English) not only impossible to honestly defend, but DEEPLY OFFENSIVE, and yes, in many cases i strongly suspect racism.
                  let me put it this way...Scottish dialect (in which Robert Burns wrote his poetry) is, in comparison to "standard" English (British or American) at least as odd a variant as African American is... but yet have i ever heard or read Scottish dialect recieve ANYWHERE NEAR the scorn that African American dialect recieves? NO! and Robert Burns is taught in schools.

                  so, quite often, yes it is racism...and that's a damned shame. classism's not a whole lot better either.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Nedloh - I'm not accusing anyone here of racism but I always wonder why people dislike a dialect or dialects in general (let me be clear, I'm not a linguist - merely a writer who also does translation and proofreading who appreciates living culture). I mean, I can understand not liking the musical aspects of a particular language or dialect but dialects are often so much richer than the international version of a language that to me it's like preferring instant coffee with non-dairy creamer to a cappuccino. I mean, I'm sure plenty of people do prefer instant coffee and it is always the same but it just seems so much further from the organic and living, not to mention bland! That's a personal bias of course.

                    I kind of suspect some people don't like AAVE because they don't understand it so it makes them feel less....I don't know what....but somehow less. (Though, once again, I'm not speculating that this is the motivation of anyone participating in this thread). That said, it's probably good to have some people trying to nail things down and keep them in one spot!
                    • People that have an aversion to AAVE (I hate the term ebonics as, it is in itself a prejudiced word) do so because they buy into the language ideologies about it. There are more reasons than the ones stated because there are blacks that hate it just as much.
                      Some blacks hate it because they think is it as a 'slave language' or symbolic of oppression. Other people hate it because of the perceived notion that it butchers Standard English somehow and indicates a lack of intelligence.

                      Studies have shown that AAVE could be a pidgin language as it follows some of the same grammatical rules and pronunciations as West African languages. Those who fear that we are approaching some slippery slope of losing our precious language should bear in mind that the dominant dialect was from the original colonies and that we would all be speaking like those in Pittsburgh has it not evolved. Our dialect is shifting as we speak to incorporate more sounds from the Southern dialect. Scary isn't it?

                      The evolution of languages is inevitable, the blending of them is as well. The only reason people feel so attached to it is because people associate language with identity.
                      • quel - "The evolution of languages is inevitable, the blending of them is as well. The only reason people feel so attached to it is because people associate language with identity."

                        That's a good point about identity. The funny thing, of course, is that American English tends to be kind of looked down upon by those who use "the Queen's English" and is generally seen as a corrupted version of English that is slowly destroying the language. British, Canadian, Australian and American English all have their charms - as do the many dialects that exist in each of these countries. My ears appreciate the diversity and how they all reflect aspects of their specific culture.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Yes. What Nedloh40 said. Non-standard dialects have always gotten short shrift from advocates of the standard dialect (usually called the language). When I was studying the dialect of the area around Bonn-Cologne, some educated Germans would take me to task for actively encouraging my informants to speak in their terrible dialect.
              • >what i don't understand is why so many people are so eager to study made-up languages (like esperanto or klingon) but mention learning a few of the ones we already have and people throw up their hands and say "oh that's too hard".

                Klingon probably is too hard. A lot of other languages are not really too hard, but will be almost impossible to master because of irregularities,bizarre spelling and pronunciation rules and complex idioms. Esperanto has the advantage that it can be much more easily mastered, and the advantage that mastery is about equally open to everyone.

                >why not study persian or chinese instead of esperanto? why not study portuguese or russian or any of the hundreds of african languages, or welsh for that matter?

                These are each worth studying for those who want to study them, but none is an easy choice for a universal auxiliary language.
                I used to favor Mandarin for that purpose, but decided it was still unnecessarily weird in a number of ways, even when one puts aside the writing system. I'm still gradually chipping away at Mandarin, but not for the same reason. I suppose a case can be made that languages like Chukchee are worth trying to preserve, although fewer people now speak that than speak Esperanto. To that end, I might point out that
                requiring the Chukchee to learn the natural Russian language rather than an artificial, politically neutral language, puts them in a weaker social and political position than the Russians who surround them. If Russians had to communicate with Chukchee in Esperanto and vice-versa, this would be a little bit more 'fair'.

                >languages we already have carry our cultures and our histories, yet they are dying all around us. because of their fluid, evolutionary nature, our languages remind us of where we've come from (and what we've come through), sociologically, geographically, historically...

                I'm not suggesting that people give up their primary languages. I'm suggesting that if they also have to learn a second language, it's pointless to make them learn an unnecessarily complicated language that strongly favors native speakers, their national interests,
                and the cultural biases built into that language.

                >an invented language may be simpler, but it is uni-dimensional; it teaches, celebrates, cradles nothing.

                It teaches the important basic skill of thinking in a second language to those who might never be able to do this otherwise,
                it celebrates the basic respect all peoples should have for each other in recognizing the profound challenge of learning ANY natural language and it cradles our hopes for a future which, if not universally agreeable, is at least universally intelligible.
                • Si
                  Si
                  offline 29
                  "It teaches the important basic skill of thinking in a second language to those who might never be able to do this otherwise,
                  it celebrates the basic respect all peoples should have for each other in recognizing the profound challenge of learning ANY natural language and it cradles our hopes for a future which, if not universally agreeable, is at least universally intelligible."

                  very good points. taken to heart and heard.

                  i get sad that so many languages are dying out, but i can see how important the equality aspect is. i usually don't think of language in terms of current politics & power, which is a mistake. i spend so much time looking back i think i'm missing some of the present. if only all languages carried equal validity and political power under current global circumstances! then we could speak any and everything, without disenfranchising anyone or losing opportunities and without foregoing the cultural histories embedded in older tongues.

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