aorist/pluperfect

topic posted Thu, September 14, 2006 - 3:18 PM by  heidski
Hope this isn't too basic for this tribe, but I've been trying to grasp the difference between:

I saw the bird
I have seen the bird

Anyone?
posted by:
heidski
SF Bay Area
  • Re: aorist/pluperfect

    Fri, September 15, 2006 - 9:20 AM
    Interesting you use the word "aorist" in your subject line. Are you studying Greek or something?

    Here are a couple definitions, which may or may not give you the info you need:
    a·o·rist
    n.
    1. A form of a verb in some languages, such as Classical Greek, that expresses action without indicating its completion or continuation.
    2. A form of a verb in some languages, such as Classical Greek or Sanskrit, that in the indicative mood expresses past action.

    plu·per·fect
    adj.
    1. Of or being a verb tense used to express action completed before a specified or implied past time.
    2. More than perfect; supremely accomplished; ideal: "He has won a reputation as [a] pluperfect bureaucrat" New York Times.
    n.
    1. The pluperfect tense, formed in English with the past participle of a verb and the auxiliary had, as had learned in the sentence He had learned to type by the end of the semester. Also called past perfect.
    2. A verb or form in the pluperfect tense.

    You may also find info on grammatical aspect helpful:
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_aspect
  • Re: aorist/pluperfect

    Fri, September 15, 2006 - 10:56 AM
    In Chinese (as I understand it) the most common choices would be more like:

    'I do see(glimpse?) the bird' (Wo kan naior)- potential use in past present/future by mentioning also the date or time.

    'II thoroughly see the bird' (wo kankan niaor)- similar chronological potential

    'I conclude seeing (glimpsing?) the bird' (wo kanle niaor) - arguably not possible to use in present tense

    'I conclude thoroughly seeing the bird' (wo kankanle niaor) -arguably not possible to use in present tense

    There is something not totally dissimilar in informal English to future tense in Chinese.

    Compare:

    'Tomorrow I shall conclude seeing the bird'

    vs.

    'Tomorrow I conclude seeing the bird'

    Also consider:

    'Today I conclude seeing the bird'
    vs.
    'Today I shall conclude seeing the bird'
    vs.
    'Today I have concluded seeing the bird'

    Is the first of these three closer in meaning to the second one or the third one?

    A problem with 'conclude' is that it tends to mean an infinitesimal point in time, so it's hard to use it literally in present tense. To do this tends to sound more like a performative; eg: 'I now conclude this discussion.'
  • Re: aorist/pluperfect

    Sun, September 24, 2006 - 4:35 PM
    i don't know if this is the sort of help you were looking for but..

    although the distinction is subtle, it is real.

    "I have seen" connects the seeing with the present state of affairs whereas "I saw" doesn't.
    compare:
    "Mine eyes have seen the Glory of the coming of the Lord"

    vs.

    *"I saw the Glory of the coming of the Lord"

    or compare:

    "I have looked hither and yon" (and I'm feeling frustrated about it right now)

    vs.

    "I looked hither and yon" (but gave up and moved on to other projects)
  • Re: aorist/pluperfect

    Mon, September 25, 2006 - 9:31 AM
    Hey, Heidski:

    Rromanes! Terrific! I know a Bulgarian Rrom in S.F. Maybe he could be your informant.

    However, "I have seen the bird" is present perfect, not pluperfect. Pluperfect would be "I had seen the bird".

    My take is:
    "I saw the bird". Speaker in present tense, referring to one instance in the past.
    "I have seen the bird." Speaker in the present tense, referring to the experience in the past, but not at a specific time.

    Craig in Arcata
  • Re: aorist/pluperfect

    Sat, March 31, 2007 - 4:37 PM
    hi.
    i dont know if i perfectly got the point or not but i have an answer.

    İ saw the bird. --- i saw the bird in a specific time. past.
    i have seen the bird. you mention about an experience. For example; someone has lost her bird and asks to find it. and you say i have seen the bird, it was flying over there... Some effect of that event may be useful for present.
    Again example you see someone who is wet and she says "it has been raining"
    i hope i can help you.
    :)

Recent topics in "Linguistics"

Topic Author Replies Last Post
Idioms offlineSi 1 May 2, 2008
Mathematical predictions of regular verbs and tense? Craig 20 May 2, 2008
Any Linguistics students focusing on syntax? Darryl 0 March 15, 2008
familiar pronouns . 42 February 28, 2008