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(I've taken my reply from the "a question" thread. It was a bit of a digression from the original question of that thread.)
The basic question I have is: do linguists really never get bothered by spelling mistakes?
Would spelling mistakes in an application letter for the job Professor of Linquistics at a university affect the chances of getting the job?
Grammar is just the attempt to codify what already exists in a language and use it as a rule of thumb for creating new text for particular auduiences. Would it be correct to define grammar this way?
There are ways of putting things that reduce ambiguity or make meaning clearer. I'm trying to say that I understand that "grammar" is derived from the language, and so "grammatical mistakes" do not exist in that sense. Perhaps you can say mistakes don't exist because we all make it up as we go along.
I don't know about linguistics, so I don't understand why it should not include discussion of spelling. I find the evolution of languages over time very, very interesting, so I do understand that these are all natual changes and that current meanings and spellings of words are result of those changes.
However, should an English teacher correct grammar or spelling? Should "definate" be marked with a red pen? If not, why not?
When I write something, I try to make the text for the reader (believe it or not), so that it is easier to understand. I also try to use correct spelling. There are obviously differences in "standard" English spelling depending on the version of English you are using, but I try to avoid...mistakes. Obviously, everyone makes mistakes. Maybe I will spell "definite" "correctly", but I'll probably get some other common word wrong.
How is a mistake defined? An "unintentional error"? How do you define "error", when it comes to spelling? Llinguists might allow the existence of "typing mistake" but not "spelling mistake". "Spelling mistake" can be defined perhaps as "an unintentional disagreement with a standard or conventional spelling". It is all relative.
Correct spelling is certainly a convention. It has become more standardised with printing and with improved communication.
Reading text on the internet inevitably means encountering a fairly wide variaty of backgrounds (people of differnet origins, ages, backgrounds, etc), so it is perfectly understandable that the language is going to have many different forms.
Howver, after emphasising natural changes, relativism, convention, and all those things, I still can't help being bothered by "definate" (for example). It just seems that a teacher with a background in linguistics would never correct anyone's spelling in an English class (or whatever the native language is).
The basic question I have is: do linguists really never get bothered by spelling mistakes?
Would spelling mistakes in an application letter for the job Professor of Linquistics at a university affect the chances of getting the job?
Grammar is just the attempt to codify what already exists in a language and use it as a rule of thumb for creating new text for particular auduiences. Would it be correct to define grammar this way?
There are ways of putting things that reduce ambiguity or make meaning clearer. I'm trying to say that I understand that "grammar" is derived from the language, and so "grammatical mistakes" do not exist in that sense. Perhaps you can say mistakes don't exist because we all make it up as we go along.
I don't know about linguistics, so I don't understand why it should not include discussion of spelling. I find the evolution of languages over time very, very interesting, so I do understand that these are all natual changes and that current meanings and spellings of words are result of those changes.
However, should an English teacher correct grammar or spelling? Should "definate" be marked with a red pen? If not, why not?
When I write something, I try to make the text for the reader (believe it or not), so that it is easier to understand. I also try to use correct spelling. There are obviously differences in "standard" English spelling depending on the version of English you are using, but I try to avoid...mistakes. Obviously, everyone makes mistakes. Maybe I will spell "definite" "correctly", but I'll probably get some other common word wrong.
How is a mistake defined? An "unintentional error"? How do you define "error", when it comes to spelling? Llinguists might allow the existence of "typing mistake" but not "spelling mistake". "Spelling mistake" can be defined perhaps as "an unintentional disagreement with a standard or conventional spelling". It is all relative.
Correct spelling is certainly a convention. It has become more standardised with printing and with improved communication.
Reading text on the internet inevitably means encountering a fairly wide variaty of backgrounds (people of differnet origins, ages, backgrounds, etc), so it is perfectly understandable that the language is going to have many different forms.
Howver, after emphasising natural changes, relativism, convention, and all those things, I still can't help being bothered by "definate" (for example). It just seems that a teacher with a background in linguistics would never correct anyone's spelling in an English class (or whatever the native language is).
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Re: mistakes
Sat, May 28, 2005 - 3:04 AMThis is obviously not a question of "morality".
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Re: mistakes
Sat, May 28, 2005 - 3:53 AMLinguistics as an academic field expects contributors to spell correctly. Yes, spelling errors will hurt you.
Your definition of grammar is not one I would use to describe what a linguist means when they say grammar. "The grammar" of a language is the sum of the inventory and rules internalized and used by its native speakers. The attempt to record as much of that as possible is also called "a grammar" (e.g. I checked out an "Inuit grammar" from the library.) I'm not sure what you mean about a rule of thumb for creating new text for particular audiences, but that doesn't sound like the purpose of a grammar.
There's been some good discussion on other threads about what gets called "mistakes" in language usage. Mistakes in the perscriptivist sense are irrelevant to a linguist's research. Mistakes which render sentences ungrammatical or bizarre in the generative sense are important to a linguist's reasearch.
Writing up your research using academic standards is important, so that is one area where perscriptivism (and therefore correct spelling) applies. That's still separate from the substance of research.
Linguists in general do not "care" about writing and spelling in their research. As someone said on the other thread, spelling is just a convention. There's no guarantee that it reflects any or all elements of linguistic structure. It also does not change naturally along with the language. Because it doesn't change along with the language, it can sometimes provide clues as to how a language has changed over time, but overall, it's not relevant to linguistic study.
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Re: mistakes
Sat, May 28, 2005 - 4:12 AMThank you very much indeed for your helpful and informative response! I was afraid someone would just reply "No."
If I read more about linguistics, maybe I will begin to see things differently. -
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Re: mistakes
Sat, May 28, 2005 - 1:09 PMGlad to help, and good luck. Learning about linguistics from books only has got to be tough - I found I often needed the lectures/discussions to completely absorb the concepts when I was studying it. What are you using? The Stephen Pinker book on language instinct is the best one I've found for newbies, I want to check out some of the others recommended here, since I've been out of it for over ten years. I also had a really great clear semantics book, I need to dig it up and check the name...and reread it if I can find the time.
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Re: mistakes [sic]
Sat, May 28, 2005 - 7:39 AMSome linguists are interested in spelling, punctuation, and prescriptivist grammar. What they are usually not interested in are the moral implications of spelling mistakes or bad grammar. Orthographies tend to be conservative, so that even as a language changes (and English has changed a lot between 800 CE and the present) spelling resists those changes. Let's look at some examples in English. When parfit was borrowed into Middle English from Norman French it was pronounced as /'parfIt/. Somewhere in this word's history it came to be spelled more etymologically "correct" as perfect, while retaining its earlier pronunciation. Nowadays, it's pronounced more like it's spelled: /'p@rfEkt/. Whether this new development was right or wrong, it is an historical fact. Another example of this weird kind of etymological spelling mucking things up is the word admiral. You see the 'd' in admiral was placed there because somebody looked at the Medieval Latin word amiralis (from Arabic 'amiral) and knowing how Latin words like adventura were being mispronounced, stuck a 'd' in to correct the spelling. (This is known as hypercorrection; cf. "between you and I".) When English borrowed the word (from the French), we even went so far as to start pronouncing the 'd'. The point of these examples is that there's more to the history of a word than exceptionless sound changes. Another point is that many people have opinions about what is right or wrong in a language, but that does not necessarily make them right.
As for linguists, as academic professionals, of course they try to spell words according to the accepted conventions. They try to write clearly and coherently. There's a difference between observing how "ain't" is used in some dialects of English as an emphatic negative 2nd or 3rd person copular verb, and delivering judgments on a person's moral or educational worth because they use "ain't". (Not all people who speak English are academics.) It probably wouldn't be very politic to use the word "ain't" in a paper I was hoping to get published in Language, unless it occurred in one of the sample sentences. But that's far from denying me my linguistic right to use "ain't" in an appropriate non-academic context.
"Ain't" seems pretty uncontroversial in this way, in that most anglophones would agree that its use is mainly confined to non-standard dialects of English. Where prescriptivists get on descriptivists' nerves is where they say that "ain't" is ungrammatical. One thing that native speakers do quite rarely is make true grammatical mistakes. What most speakers of different dialects immmediately notice of one another is that they speak (and write) differently. Just because "ain't" is not grammatical in standard academese does not mean it's ungrammatical in casual colloquial English. And I've just been talking about the use of "ain't" in the 2nd and 3rd person. (e.g., "He ain't gonna graduate this year.") What's less clear is why "ain't" is to be deprecated in the first person. Why should we say "I'm not going to clean my room!" instead of "I ain't gonna clean out the garage."? (My tenure could in no way be influenced by this domestic utterance.) Ain't seems to be a perfectly grammatical contraction of "am not" similar to "can't" and "won't". But somebody somewhere got mighty upset with "ain't" probably because it was starting to be used with the two other persons. Also, weirdly enough, a strange mispronuciation of 'ain't" came to be used in tag questions: "I am a professor of English, aren't I?" instead of the more logical "I am a professor of English, ain't I?" This pronuciation probably had more to do with certain classes in England dropping their 'r's in words that had them etymologically / spellingwise, and inserting 'r's where they didn't belong.
Finally, if I were teaching English, I would indicate misspellings with a red pen just like everybody else. But I would try to remember that we speakers of English have been saddled with one of the most arbitrary and godawful orthographies in the modern world. We spend way too much time in school trying to teach this terrible system to people instead of modifying it as other modern languages have done. Only the Chinese and the Japanese seem to have more arbitrarily difficult writing systems. At least English uses an alphabetic writing system, but our spelling conventions are less than optimal. -
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Language shifts over time - question
Sat, May 28, 2005 - 8:28 AMOk, i have a question that i've not seen much theory on - partially cause I've been out of the field for far too long, and prior to this board, never had anyone who understood things from a linguistic perspective (love you guys... heheeh).
My question is this. As noted by the person who initiated this threat, spelling rules and conventions are fully codified in English now. What he didn't say was "in ways it has never been codified before". The first real attempt at fully standardizing the conventions of spelling and punctuation do not appear till Webster - just over a century ago. In scholarship of naitve religions, much of the source is from 1890-1920's, and you can see how slow we were to fully adapt to these conventions.
but by 1950, eveything written is "standardized."
So, here's my question. How much do ou all think this will effect langauge change? Instead of "could have" slowly becomming "could of" in the natural discourse of a predominatly oral language, most people are corrected BACK to "could have" by those red pen possessing teachers. Same with "aint' and past progressive subjuntive, and the BEV's habitual tense.
I suspect this will drastically retard any real change in English. But that's just suspcition. I've not really read or studied on it.
any thoughts? -
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Re: Language shifts over time - question
Sat, May 28, 2005 - 9:53 AMWell, Old English had a pretty good standard in the language of the Wessex court. Even other Anglo-Saxon kingdoms were starting to use it, but then came 1066 and all that. Another set of problems is that the vowels of Early Modern English started to go through a major change (which is how a e i o u became /'ej 'i, 'aj, 'ow, juw/ in Modern English) right around the time that (mostly foreign or foreign taught) printers were beginning to forge a standard orthography. Also, the English kingdom, under the Tudors and the Stuarts, didn't really have a standard English, so a lot of the spellings which people used probably show some interference from their regional dialect. By the time of Johnson's dictionary, spelling was getting rather regular, and, yes, Webster had his hand in it to. Interestingly enough, most of the prescriptivist rules one runs across these days had their origins in 18th century grammatical works of Bishop Lowth and the like.
Many people today have rather non-standard spelling. This is partially due to the difficulty of our spelling system and partially to the fact that not many folks (even college educated) make their livings writing. I know; I do.
Could've, could of, and could have are interesting because in casual speech most folks pronounce all three of these alike. Even when reading out loud from a written source.
The interesting thing about AAVE (or BVE) is the pronouncement by people that these dialects are somehow not grammatical. This I think shows the difference between what linguists call grammar and what grammar mavens call grammar. AAVE has a grammar which can be discerned by anybody who observes it even casually. Here's an experiment. Find a speaker of AAVE and try to speak AAVE (assuming you are not already a speaker). See how many grammatical mistakes you make. I've always found it fascinating that many people can identify accents (or dialectal pronuciations) and where people are from, etc., but we would be hard put to imitate those accents. I've listened to a lot of non-American-English-speaking people try and very few become proficient. And in that case I'm only talking about phonology. It's much more difficult when you throw in variant morphology and/or syntax. (AAVE has an aspectual system that is quite different from SAE.) I don't know of any linguist who proposes that students who speak AAVE shouldn't learn Standard American English, but what it takes when you're trying to teach these students is an understanding of how their dialect is as logical, methodical, rule-based, and coherent as the yours is. It's also different. The interference between two similar dialects can be quite great a t times and any teacher teaching in this context should know it.
For the record, I am a terrible speller, but I was also taught how to use a dictionary (not a trivial thing) a long time ago. I have also taught foreign language to English speakers and tutored English to non-native speakers.
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Re: mistakes
Sat, May 28, 2005 - 8:17 AMHere's one answer.
I'm dyslexic. Before I send out any letter to an editor, article to be published, or realllyreallyreally importantly, a professial letter such a "job application", i make sure my hubby or best friend reads it over.
Cause yes, there is a difference between what lingusits see as a "change over time", and what grammarians see as "errors."
a speaker of BEV (black English Vanaculer) must learn or appropriate the "standard english" if he or she wishes to be taken seriously in a court of law, as an actor, or as a high end sales rep. (there is a wierd parralle, however, that if i go to a 'black church', i just sound condescending when i attempt to use BEV).
Linguists do not cast aside the protocols of Standard Americna (or British) english, they just understand why things change over time, and why we no longer say "thee", and why "could of" is becomming a norm in "casual" places like the internet, or office writing.
"correct" "right /wrong" are about the people publishing the work. No legitimate journal - be it on Linguistics, or Religious studies, or ATomic Theory - would let you just "make up" your spelling as it suited you.
does that help at all?